Darth Maul vs. Tulak Hord

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. I never said he would lie however he has a very bias perception of his master and somethings could have been exaggerated or the context could have been ignored. In the end it's all hype from a fallible in universe source and considering how far ahead of the Ancient Sith Vitiate actually was I wouldn't take the fact that Tulak Hord can solo armies seriously. Whatever though just my perception and there is no real way to prove Khem isn't exaggerating or whatnot.

2. First off that quote refers to them as a collective so this isn't something for Tulak to boast about in fact it's quite the opposite. If the only way Tulak can hold his own against Vitiate is with the rest of the Ancient Sith then this actually furthers my point that Vitiate is vastly more powerful than any one Ancient Sith.

Also how is Vitiate being scared of them relevant? He's insanely paranoid and is terrfied of death. This does not mean they're comparable to him.

1. Why would he lie or overexaggerate Tulak's performances? There was no reason for that. As a matter of fact, Khem served Tulak because of his "superior" strength in The Force.

2. Because the writer was counting them all at the same time. Or do you want the writer to list every Sith Lord's name in particular? Do you know how much it would take to do so?

You are looking for straws to diminish the ancient Sith's performances.

Kill him Nadd!

KILL HIM!!!

Why are prople doubting Hord could pull this off when a newbie Exar Kun could do the same?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Why are prople doubting Hord could pull this off when a newbie Exar Kun could do the same?

could tulak defeat marko? hmm.

interesting thought. their fight would destroy several cities i think.

truly two of the most powerful.

maul dies.

Originally posted by Trocity
could tulak defeat marko? hmm.

interesting thought. their fight would destroy several cities i think.

truly two of the most powerful.

maul dies.

I heard that Ragnos was the most powerful Sith Lord of his time, though we aren’t sure if Tulak was alive during his time, I like to infer that Hord was alive at some point of Ragnos’s life.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Doesnt make a difference to his point. We have to powerscale as well.

E.g. Palpatine Force choking Dooku almost certainly means Yoda can, given they pretty much stalemated in a Force battle.

Correction: Yoda's pod went unchallenged, causing Sidious visible fright, and the DBZ power battle was largely in Yoda's favor, because Yoda caught the blast at a disadvantage and with little footing, reversed it, and it blew up in Sids' lap. Yoda is KO'd for lack of a handrail.

Yoda > Sids

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Kill him Nadd!

KILL HIM!!!

The writers of The Old Republic just do not give any penny of what Lucas' timeline/universe states.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Ragnos would win, but by very little.

I heard that Ragnos was the most powerful Sith Lord of his time, though we aren’t sure if Tulak was alive during his time, I like to infer that Hord was alive at some point of Ragnos’s life.

The time-line with Hord is all sorts of messed up, especially because he used a lightsaber (which were not showned in GAotS), his apprentice that he murdered was interred on Dromund Kaas (which was not part of the Sith Empire at the time of GAotS as it was considered lost. Vitiate 'found' it again). It's very likely he predates Ragnos by a good deal given the latter fact, but if you want your head to explode a bit, his buddy Khem Val was put in suspended animation in Sadow's tomb.

If I try to rationalize it, here's what I would say:

Tulak probably uses the lightsaber of one of the Jedi exile founders of the Sith Empire, as they were not common by the time of Ragnos at all. Either it was a prize taken or passed down from someone in his bloodline. Of course, in its typical hamfisted way, TOR insists that Drallig was a lightsaber user as well when he served under Tulak, and he studied at the Sith academy on Korriban. So how does that work?

I'm assuming here that one of two things happened: either a finite number of lightsabers became rare enough to hoard (Drallig's family -was- old money and may have had one if they had Jedi blood), or lightsabers were abandoned because sith swords could be imbued with sorcery and thus had more utility.

This would explain a bit of a hangup in the timeline if either were true. Additionally, Khem's stasis could have been in the same cavern Sadow appropriated for his tomb, and there's no real connection. I don't recall Khem's dialogue since I haven't done that quest since 2012 and I'm too lazy to Youtube it at this hour.

tl;dr Hord would have been long dead at the time of Ragnos. The only rival for Ragnos' reign was Simus, and that was a century before GAotS even took place. It's entirely possible Hord and the really badass saber users were closer to the founding of the Sith Empire and got their inherent ability or training from the exiled Jedi who took over Korriban. This makes more sense when you consider Dromund Kaas was known to Drallig and unknown in Ragnos' time entirely.

how can we not be sure tulak didnt flow walk across the ages testing his mettle against the champions of each era?

i think tulak would give anyone a run for their money he is very strong. i hope disney expands upon tulak hord he is a cool character.

Originally posted by Trocity
how can we not be sure tulak didnt flow walk across the ages testing his mettle against the champions of each era?

i think tulak would give anyone a run for their money he is very strong. i hope disney expands upon tulak hord he is a cool character.

quan waiting for the moment when Tulak stomps Sidious in the Disney-canon. 😉

I we look at written down feats, Hord wins fairly easily.

But if Ragnos actually had some feats then I bet we may make a different assumption...

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I we look at written down feats, Hord wins fairly easily.

But if Ragnos actually had some feats then I bet we may make a different assumption...

I might write a story about him.

The time-line with Hord is all sorts of messed up, especially because he used a lightsaber (which were not showned in GAotS), his apprentice that he murdered was interred on Dromund Kaas (which was not part of the Sith Empire at the time of GAotS as it was considered lost. Vitiate 'found' it again). It's very likely he predates Ragnos by a good deal given the latter fact, but if you want your head to explode a bit, his buddy Khem Val was put in suspended animation in Sadow's tomb.

1. Hord lived centuries before the Golden Age of the Sith, shortly after Ajunta Pall's time.
2. Aloysius Kallig was his rival, not his apprentice.
3. It's heavily suggested in a discussion with Talos Drellik that the Tomb of Naga Sadow was built on top of Khem's stasis chamber.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. Why would he lie or overexaggerate Tulak's performances? There was no reason for that. As a matter of fact, Khem served Tulak because of his "superior" strength in The Force.

2. Because the writer was counting them all at the same time. Or do you want the writer to list every Sith Lord's name in particular? Do you know how much it would take to do so?

You are looking for straws to diminish the ancient Sith's performances.

1. A) Khem literally spends the entire game praising his master and saying The Sith Inquisitor will never live up to his legacy. Kinda comes across as bias.

1. B) It's also worth noting Khem spent ages in stasis and when he came out he got beaten by the SI. Now I know Khem's fighting prowess probably decreased in stasis but I don't see a way Khem's power could have decreased to the point where he was below Nox (who was still training) when before he was comparable to his master who could solo entire armies. Add in the fact that he remains the SI's slave for the whole game pretty much shows that even when recovered Khem was below the SI. That should suggest that Khem wasn't even capable of lasting a few seconds against an army.

Now let's look at the below quote:

"One of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hord's side to conqueror an army of Jedi 1,000 strong." ―Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

As I've proven above Khem Val was not able to last a few seconds against an army. Now let's put this into context. Seen as the above quote mentions both Khem and Tulak's victory against the above Jedi army was a combined effort this suggests at least some parity between Khem and Tulak (and as a reminder Khem is incapable of standing against an army for a few seconds). Add in the fact that if Tulak is as powerful as everyone says he is then why TF does he need Khem? Khem would likely be a hinderance for him as he'd have to protect Khem from dying in a few seconds whereas without Khem he could literally devote more energy to fighting his opponents. Everything suggests Khem is comparable to Tulak which doesn't bode well for Tulak at all.

Khem cannot solo armies and he's comparable to Tulak. In fact I just checked Ant's RT and there isn't a single quote which suggests Tulak can solo armies. The best I found was Khem saying Tulak broke a seige but no numbers were given and it wasn't mentioned to be an army. I'm actually questioning now where it says Tulak can solo an army by now.

Please enlighten me.

Also as I pointed out it makes zero sense for Tulak to be capable of accomplishing such a feat considering he was surpassed by massively pre prime Valkorion.

2. I was tired when I wrote that. Just realised how stupid that was.

However my point below that still stands. Since when does Vitiaate being scared of someone mean they're on the same level as him. He was incredibly paranoid and terrifed of death.

@RealistRacism: See above points for Tulak not being able to slaughter armies.

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. A) Khem literally spends the entire game praising his master and saying The Sith Inquisitor will never live up to his legacy. Kinda comes across as bias.

1. B) It's also worth noting Khem spent ages in stasis and when he came out he got beaten by the SI. Now I know Khem's fighting prowess probably decreased in stasis but I don't see a way Khem's power could have decreased to the point where he was below Nox (who was still training) when before he was comparable to his master who could solo entire armies. Add in the fact that he remains the SI's slave for the whole game pretty much shows that even when recovered Khem was below the SI. That should suggest that Khem wasn't even capable of lasting a few seconds against an army.

Now let's look at the below quote:

As I've proven above Khem Val was not able to last a few seconds against an army. Now let's put this into context. Seen as the above quote mentions both Khem and Tulak's victory against the above Jedi army was a combined effort this suggests at least some parity between Khem and Tulak (and as a reminder Khem is incapable of standing against an army for a few seconds). Add in the fact that if Tulak is as powerful as everyone says he is then why TF does he need Khem? Khem would likely be a hinderance for him as he'd have to protect Khem from dying in a few seconds whereas without Khem he could literally devote more energy to fighting his opponents. Everything suggests Khem is comparable to Tulak which doesn't bode well for Tulak at all.

Khem cannot solo armies and he's comparable to Tulak. In fact I just checked Ant's RT and there isn't a single quote which suggests Tulak can solo armies. The best I found was Khem saying Tulak broke a seige but no numbers were given and it wasn't mentioned to be an army. I'm actually questioning now where it says Tulak can solo an army by now.

Please enlighten me.

Also as I pointed out it makes zero sense for Tulak to be capable of accomplishing such a feat considering he was surpassed by massively pre prime Valkorion.

2. I was tired when I wrote that. Just realised how stupid that was.

However my point below that still stands. Since when does Vitiaate being scared of someone mean they're on the same level as him. He was incredibly paranoid and terrifed of death.

@RealistRacism: See above points for Tulak not being able to slaughter armies.

This is like saying why does Palpatine need Vader if he is stronger.

There's no reason to think Tulak Hord can't pull that feat off. Nor any reason to suggest he's buffing up the feat.

Originally posted by Freedumb Nadd
This is like saying why does Palpatine need Vader if he is stronger.

So you managed to address one point from entire post worth of them. Concession accepted I guess.

As for your point it's really a terrible comparison. Vader paticipated in battles because Palpatine wanted to devote his efforts to other things. Meanwhile Tulak particpated in battles and was known as a master combatant. It really makes zero sense for Tulak to take Khem with him into battle if Khem is a a lot weaker than him as Khem would just get in his way and he'd have to devote more energy to protecting Khem. If Tulak could go in and solo armies then why did he bring Khem with him who'd die in seconds to an army. Not to mention the plethora of other evidence which suggests Khem isn't that far off his master.

Using a flawed comparison isn't evidence. Try again. You really are worthy of your name Freedumb Nadd.

Originally posted by HP Legend
So you managed to address one point from entire post worth of them. Concession accepted I guess.

As for your point it's really a terrible comparison. Vader paticipated in battles because Palpatine wanted to devote his efforts to other things. Meanwhile Tulak particpated in battles and was known as a master combatant. It really makes zero sense for Tulak to take Khem with him into battle if Khem is a a lot weaker than him as Khem would just get in his way and he'd have to devote more energy to protecting Khem. If Tulak could go in and solo armies then why did he bring Khem with him who'd die in seconds to an army. Not to mention the plethora of other evidence which suggests Khem isn't that far off his master.

Using a flawed comparison isn't evidence. Try again. You really are worthy of your name Freedumb Nadd.

Tulak chose him because he was strong, you arrogant blind shmuck. 👆

Who said he was weak? I did not. That is why he chose him as guardian and trapped him in Sadow's tomb on Korriban in stasis - because he was wounded in battles. And obviously Tulak was not going to let him die.
You say as if facing so many Jedi and get wounded is a failure. Did you ever see Sidious taking on countless Jedi at once, and survive? I did not.

As a matter of fact, Cela backstabbed him because he was obviously afraid of facing him in direct combat.

Do you think he gained the respect and fear in the Sith Order by being a nobody who could be owned by an averager like Maul - compared to Star Wars powerhouses?

In the ancient times only the most powerful Sith Lords survived and they only died via backstabbing. During those times no one cared how cunning you are and your pitiful boasts. In those times all that mattered was direct combat and Force strength. Those were the prequisites of being a Sith Lord. Not like in Bane's times where you need to lie and get into politics and manipulate people to do your bidding and cause corruption from within to destroy an organization.

I'll get back to this later.