Originally posted by RealistRacism
So are we to take that as the OP meaning Zonakin? Peak Anakin is just standard RotS Anakin, at least that's what I thought. Temporary amps don't count imo.
What do you mean by standard RotS Anakin, and temporary amps? I can only assume that you mean that Anakin at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith is his baseline, and that the power growth demonstrated by "Zonakin/Knightfall Vader" was temporary, but I'm not sure how you got that impression from the text.
On the topic of Anakin at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, the text has this to say:
This boy had the gift of fury.And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.
Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.
As of the fight on the Invisible Hand, Anakin consciously suppresses himself out of fear of the darkness welled up inside of him. Then, he's given an excuse to unleash that darkness, which is what leads to the state that you call Zonakin:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself: Oh, I get it, now, and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.[...]
Palpatine's words have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
So, with that in mind, why do you consider the Anakin that is restraining himself to be the standard? And what makes you think that releasing those restraints only increased his power temporarily? Anakin still feels more powerful than ever a little while after his battle with Dooku:
Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.
I mean, I suppose you could argue that Anakin would have went back to restraining himself after that incident, but even that would no longer be valid once he embraces his identity as a Sith Lord:
The Sith Lord who once had been a Jedi hero called Anakin Skywalker stood, drawing himself up to his full height, but he looked not outward upon his new Master, nor upon the planet-city beyond, nor out into the galaxy that they would soon rule. He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life.
I interpreted Anakin "getting stronger" on the Invisible Hand as him slowly becoming angrier and angrier, until he cuts loose at the end. After Dooku is killed he returns to his normal state, as he was before Kenobi got clowned. I treat KF Vader as a seperate entity entirely, as he's not really Anakin at that point.
I don't know why this "holding back" from embracing his rage is unique to Anakin, since every Jedi is essentially doing the same thing to a lesser extent. Do we say that they're all not in their primes because of this?
Regardless, this is a gay side-topic that I never intended to debate. You're probably right since this quote; "Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced" is pretty solid, but I still doubt this means he's now permanently in his Zonakin state from this point forward (until his full turn).
Originally posted by RealistRacism
I interpreted Anakin "getting stronger" on the Invisible Hand as him slowly becoming angrier and angrier, until he cuts loose at the end.
That is exactly what the script states.
Probably why he cant realistically contend with Yoda or Palpatine at that point, as it takes him time to reach that point where he can house Dooku. Time enough for either Yoda or Palpatine to ragdoll him.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
No, he'd already started losing his energy before everyone was serious, lmfao. Have you read the book? He was obviously toying with them for a fair while for this to be the case anyway.Wtf are you talking about? Dooku can't just instantly replenish his reserves.
Urm yes I have read the book, which makes it perfectly clear he replenished his reserves a few times.
He began toying with them but then went for the kill.
And him getting weaker was all down to Anakins power. Remember how each blow cost him more in Force reserves than it cost him to ragdoll Kenobi.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Dooku was old. He was past his prime. And Anakin's cyber-arm offered him a physical (extra)advantage over Dooku.
How does any of that not make Anakin > Dooku?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Urm yes I have read the book, which makes it perfectly clear he replenished his reserves a few times.He began toying with them but then went for the kill.
And him getting weaker was all down to Anakins power. Remember how each blow cost him more in Force reserves than it cost him to ragdoll Kenobi.
"However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man."
It's undeniable that Dooku's stamina was starting to fade at the beginning, and by the time he was dealing with Anakin, it'd nearly be gone. Anakin was getting stronger and stronger during this time. It's not hard 😬
And it cost him next to nothing to ragdoll Kenobi, lmao.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
How does any of that not make Anakin > Dooku?
RealistRacism has already answered it.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku getting weaker was because of Anakin hitting him hard, sure. But it's also because he's an old man dealing with two opponents, something he didn't really have the stamina for. This is made clear very early on - Before anyone starts getting serious;"However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man."
It's undeniable that Dooku's stamina was starting to fade at the beginning, and by the time he was dealing with Anakin, it'd nearly be gone. Anakin was getting stronger and stronger during this time. It's not hard 😬
And it cost him next to nothing to ragdoll Kenobi, lmao.
I don't see baseline RotS Anakin beating Yoda. In the Dooku fight, Anakin is influenced by external factors (aka Palpatine egging him on in the novel), in Knightfall he's basically emotionally unhinged, and at Mustafar he's also unhinged but in an arguably detrimental way. On the other hand, Yoda is a solid tier 9 duelist, and solidly above Dooku, more importantly. In no way does baseline RotS Anakin gain a majority over Yoda, the same guy who matched Sidious in power and disarmed him. There are no external factors here, so basically any feat vof his from RotS doesn't matter here. He's explained as a tier 8 duelist who only becomes a 9 if he uses the dark side. Furthermore, I can't really see Anakin overcoming Yoda's mastery of the force. Anyway, both of these guys would definitely prefer a sword battle to a force one.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku getting weaker was because of Anakin hitting him hard, sure. But it's also because he's an old man dealing with two opponents, something he didn't really have the stamina for. This is made clear very early on - Before anyone starts getting serious;"However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man."
It's undeniable that Dooku's stamina was starting to fade at the beginning, and by the time he was dealing with Anakin, it'd nearly be gone. Anakin was getting stronger and stronger during this time. It's not hard 😬
Even though the text makes it clear he replenished his Force reserves AFTER Obi-Wan was out of the fight, which you still haven't refuted. Like at all. So its apparent Stamina only comes into play in the sense that he can only replenish himself so many times.
As per the movie however he didn't even fight both of them for very long. Let's see exactly how long:
They don't engage him until 1:08..
Take a break at 1:13 to chat, so did defending himself from the duo for 5 seconds tire him out too much?
Battle recommences at 1:24 (10 second break after 5seconds of fighting) and Obi-Wan is pushed out of the fight at 1:30. So was it this 6 seconds that destroyed his stamina? Because from there on he is battling Skywalker alone aside from when this happens:
Originally posted by RealistRacism
And it cost him next to nothing to ragdoll Kenobi, lmao.
Thanks for the concession on that. But seriously that is some lousy stamina. The kind where he shouldn't even consider fighting Skywalker under any circumstances.
Although I'd argue the rag dolling of Kenobi did cost him something. Just negligible to what it takes to fight Skywalker, given each blow from Skywalker took more from him than it did to rag doll Kenobi, and each blow aged him a decade.
This is all of course completely ignoring TCW, where it has been made very apparent that Dooku simply can not take Skywalker out quickly at all, so would have to deal with Skywalkers increasing strength, and deal with his own apparently lousy stamina, regardless.
Even though the text makes it clear he replenished his Force reserves AFTER Obi-Wan was out of the fight, which you still haven't refuted. Like at all. So its apparent Stamina only comes into play in the sense that he can only replenish himself so many times.
As per the movie however he didn't even fight both of them for very long. Let's see exactly how long:They don't engage him until 1:08..
Take a break at 1:13 to chat, so did defending himself from the duo for 5 seconds tire him out too much?
Battle recommences at 1:24 (10 second break after 5seconds of fighting) and Obi-Wan is pushed out of the fight at 1:30. So was it this 6 seconds that destroyed his stamina? Because from there on he is battling Skywalker alone aside from when this happens:
1.) Yes I know George edited and approved the novel, but it doesn't matter. His higher canon movie shows a completely different set of events on the Invisible Hand.
2.) Yes, the novel was based closely off the script. Irrelevant for the same reason; George's Movie and final word > Script and Novel
You can't just pick and choose where the novel or movie matters more, consistency please 🙄
The RotS novel details an extended sequence in which chairs hurled at one another, Dooku lands physical strikes, hurls a table at Anakin and pins him against the wall etc. The duo were "raining blows almost at random" and "cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction" and while Dooku may have been dealing with this easily, it'd still no doubt be expending a noticeable amount of his force energy simply because of the amount of time this was going on for. Except, you've ignored this fact and deferred straight to the movie. I guess that means I'm entitled to do the same to whichever part of the novel I don't like.
If you want to go off the movie - and only the movie - as evidence that the jobbing part of the fight was short, then I will base my answers on how the rest of the fight was shown in the movie - and only that;
1.) Dooku easily outmuscles Kenobi.
2.) He meets the duo's strength with one-hand above his head.
3.) Dooku pushes Kenobi to the ground.
4.) The Count starts to go up the stairs, then proceeds to fend off Anakin's strikes whilst walking up them backwards.
5.) Dooku meets the two combatants in a blade-lock once again, breaking it with such force that it staggers their weapons backwards, before ragdolling Kenobi and nonchalantly kicking Skywalker into a wall.
6.) Anakin kicks Dooku off the balcony and attacks him furiously. Dooku defends against all of these attacks and gives him a little half-smirk at 2:06; Count Dooku DOMINATES Two Handsome Men with his Curve-Shafted Red Rod
7.) The Count taunts Anakin into going full-dark side, he does and the old man dies.
George's intent was obvious; The duo are absolute trash to Dooku, until Anakin gets enraged 🙂
Thanks for the concession on that
But seriously that is some lousy stamina. The kind where he shouldn't even consider fighting Skywalker under any circumstances.
Although I'd argue the rag dolling of Kenobi did cost him something. Just negligible to what it takes to fight Skywalker, given each blow from Skywalker took more from him than it did to rag doll Kenobi, and each blow aged him a decade.
This is all of course completely ignoring TCW, where it has been made very apparent that Dooku simply can not take Skywalker out quickly at all, so would have to deal with Skywalkers increasing strength, and deal with his own apparently lousy stamina, regardless.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
The burden of proof is on you. I shouldn't have to write extra words addressing a point you haven't proven.
I didn't realise Dooku replenishing his force reserves as per the ROTS Novel was in dispute. If it is I'll have to dig up my copy of the ROTS novel to find it, but is that necessary when we both know it's there?
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Interesting. It seems you've discovered that the fight depicted in the novel is vastly different to the one in the movie - due to the omission of certain significant events - in which Dooku utterly dominates the duel until the very end. Obviously the sequence is longer in the book, because you have to cut out bits and pieces of scenes to make them fit within the time constraints of a movie. You simply can't use both forms of media at once to come to a conclusion, due to the aforementioned time limitations. So where does that leave us? Go by what's said in Stover's novel? Or George Lucas' higher canon movie? Before you say it;1.) Yes I know George edited and approved the novel, but it doesn't matter. His higher canon movie shows a completely different set of events on the Invisible Hand.
2.) Yes, the novel was based closely off the script. Irrelevant for the same reason; George's Movie and final word > Script and NovelYou can't just pick and choose where the novel or movie matters more, consistency please 🙄
The RotS novel details an extended sequence in which chairs hurled at one another, Dooku lands physical strikes, hurls a table at Anakin and pins him against the wall etc. The duo were "raining blows almost at random" and "cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction" and while Dooku may have been dealing with this easily, it'd still no doubt be expending a noticeable amount of his force energy simply because of the amount of time this was going on for. Except, you've ignored this fact and deferred straight to the movie. I guess that means I'm entitled to do the same to whichever part of the novel I don't like.
If you want to go off the movie - and only the movie - as evidence that the jobbing part of the fight was short, then I will base my answers on how the rest of the fight was shown in the movie - and only that;
1.) Dooku easily outmuscles Kenobi.
2.) He meets the duo's strength with one-hand above his head.
3.) Dooku pushes Kenobi to the ground.
4.) The Count starts to go up the stairs, then proceeds to fend off Anakin's strikes whilst walking up them backwards.
5.) Dooku meets the two combatants in a blade-lock once again, breaking it with such force that it staggers their weapons backwards, before ragdolling Kenobi and nonchalantly kicking Skywalker into a wall.
6.) Anakin kicks Dooku off the balcony and attacks him furiously. Dooku defends against all of these attacks and gives him a little half-smirk at 2:06; Count Dooku DOMINATES Two Handsome Men with his Curve-Shafted Red Rod
7.) The Count taunts Anakin into going full-dark side, he does and the old man dies.George's intent was obvious; The duo are absolute trash to Dooku, until Anakin gets enraged 🙂
The New Legends rule here are the same as the Old Canon rules. Which are that the film takes priority.
Alan gave the example of the ROTS Novel stating Anakin couldn't see Palpatine moving against Windu because he moved so fast. Galan states that doesn't happen in the film, as he never see them Saber fight, so that part of the novel should be disregarded.
But what have I pointed from the novel that needs to be disregarded due to a blatant contradiction. It's you who keeps bringing up Dooku only lost due to tiring because he was under unfair circumstances. I just pointed to the movie to show he didn't actually fight the 2 of them together for very long. Like literally seconds.
Things that I brought up, like the Power of Anakin's blows are not contradicted, given Dooku is giving ground almost the entire fight, including up the stairs against Anakin alone.
As for parrying both their blows, that would be to do with positioning. Their Sabers meet mid way through Dooku's but near the top of the Duo's Sabers.
Dooku smirking also doesn't mean much, given even in the novel he uses Dun Moch on Anakin.
The bits of the novel I'm bringing up are what's going on in the combatants minds. The movie depiction can't possibly contradict that.
Now I get that if we completely ignore the novel, and completely ignore TCW series, and ONLY go by the movie, then yes of course there could be an argument for Dooku winning a 1 v 1 solo against Anakin.
However this isn't the movie only versus forum. This has now become the default Legends forum, which you were all for. That doesn't change when it doesn't suit your stance.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Literally no concession... He uses a fraction of his power that was gathered over the course of about one second. This isn't what I said was exhausting the Count...
There's really nothing else there (in the movie) to exhaust him. And again if we go by the novel, Dooku reached out through the Force to replenish his Force Reserves anyway. Which again isn't/can't even be contradicted by the film, not that we see any reason why he'd need to in the film.
In any case the novel makes it pretty clear, the tiredness Dooku faced was due to fighting Skywalker. Kenobi had little to do with it.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
You applied the logic that his stamina was horrible based on a few seconds from the movie. In that fight, he was dominating and suffering from no such hinderance. The novel however, does make note of his age and waning reserves, but that's because the sequence at the beginning is far longer... Are you okay Thor? You may want to rethink this one.
Actually the script, which follows the movie sequence of events almost exactly, also refers to Dooku tiring as Anakin grows stronger.
There's really nothing to rethink unless you want to take this to the Movie Versus Forum. In which case I've already stated, based on that piece of evidence alone, of course an argument could be made for Dooku winning a 1 v 1 rematch against Skywalker.
But as soon as you include the novel or TCW that clearly isn't the case.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
So blows from a furious Anakin cost him more in reserves than a "whipcrack" of power? Wow, that's quite something.
Each blow, yeah, according to the novel.
Again supporting my case that if Dooku was tiring, it was all related to combating Anakin and had little/nothing to do with Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
This is just false. You haven't even said anything of substance here, just the same tired, old talking points. Prove it, or shut up.
Well that's like your opinion.
I have at least gone through the movie clip as well as the novel. But it's not like your argument isn't the same old as well lol. Same old Dooku was tired, it wasn't fair on him.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I didn't realise Dooku replenishing his force reserves as per the ROTS Novel was in dispute. If it is I'll have to dig up my copy of the ROTS novel to find it, but is that necessary when we both know it's there?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The New Legends rule here are the same as the Old Canon rules. Which are that the film takes priority. But what have I pointed from the novel that needs to be disregarded due to a blatant contradiction. It's you who keeps bringing up Dooku only lost due to tiring because he was under unfair circumstances. I just pointed to the movie to show he didn't actually fight the 2 of them together for very long. Like literally seconds.
Do you see where you went wrong? Dooku's tired in the novel because of an extended beginning sequence, and this is why Anakin is able to pummel him - coupled with his mounting rage. In the movie, which takes precedence over all other material, Dooku isn't getting creamed and there's no tiring. So do you want to go off the movie for only the beginning sequence, the rest of the fight or not at all? You can't just cut up and rearrange which parts of each format that you like, and come to a conclusion. I merely addressed what you were saying within the confines of the material that you were referencing, nothing more. With that said, you attempting to frame the longer opening in the novel as a contradiction is invalid when the whole fight is totally different. I'll expand more on this below.
Contradiction by Addition? Or Just Different Events? It Doesn't Matter
I'm sorry Thor, but you can't use the novel as a supplementary source to claim that Anakin was battering Dooku, because the circumstances that allow him to do this in the novel aren't present in the movie.
I'll use the example that I've shared on these forums before, because I feel it's pertinent; If Salvatore was to add parts into the AotC 'Dooku vs Yoda' duel, that depicted the Count nearly three-shotting Yoda, hammering his defenses to the point where he couldn't feel the room around him, Dooku easily outpacing his opponent, etc. but in addition to that, still showed us more or less the same scenes from the movie, you'd be the first one to claim that it was inconsistent with higher canon, and you would be absolutely right. This fight is no different. You don't need specific contradictory scenes to contradict the overall fight. Adding in scenes that provide context for the novel's result aren't present in the movie, so they aren't valid. So throw out the novel, and we have the movie. How different are they?
Movie: Dooku was easily winning, and suffering from no shortage of stamina. - Lucas' final word and the highest canon material on this topic.
Novel: Dooku is getting weaker, running low on reserves from an extended opening scuffle. - Lower canon material, made before the film, and displays portions of the duel that are drastically different to what we see on screen - contradicting the overall intent of the fight depicted in Lucas' movie.
**TO BE CLEAR** I'm not at all saying that we should throw out novelisations and use the movies as our only source. RotS is a unique case, as none of the novels in the rest of the PT or OT are as outwardly contradictory/different.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Things that I brought up, like the Power of Anakin's blows are not contradicted, given Dooku is giving ground almost the entire fight, including up the stairs against Anakin alone.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
As for parrying both their blows, that would be to do with positioning. Their Sabers meet mid way through Dooku's but near the top of the Duo's Sabers.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku smirking also doesn't mean much, given even in the novel he uses Dun Moch on Anakin.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Now I get that if we completely ignore the novel, and completely ignore TCW series, and ONLY go by the movie, then yes of course there could be an argument for Dooku winning a 1 v 1 solo against Anakin.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
However this isn't the movie only versus forum. This has now become the default Legends forum, which you were all for. That doesn't change when it doesn't suit your stance.
We could however, throw out nearly everything we've said so far, for I fear our argument basically hinges on one thing; Whether or not you believe something can be invalid based on the omission/addition of certain events without a specific contradiction of scenes. This should be obvious, since adding and taking away certain elements can drastically change the outcome. I think this is undeniable, but I'm sure you'll still dispute this. It's in our nature to disagree on literally everything 😂
Originally posted by Darth Thor
There's really nothing else there (in the movie) to exhaust him. And again if we go by the novel, Dooku reached out through the Force to replenish his Force Reserves anyway. Which again isn't/can't even be contradicted by the film, not that we see any reason why he'd need to in the film.In any case the novel makes it pretty clear, the tiredness Dooku faced was due to fighting Skywalker. Kenobi had little to do with it.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Actually the script, which follows the movie sequence of events almost exactly, also refers to Dooku tiring as Anakin grows stronger. There's really nothing to rethink unless you want to take this to the Movie Versus Forum. In which case I've already stated, based on that piece of evidence alone, of course an argument could be made for Dooku winning a 1 v 1 rematch against Skywalker. But as soon as you include the novel or TCW that clearly isn't the case.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Each blow, yeah, according to the novel.Again supporting my case that if Dooku was tiring, it was all related to combating Anakin and had little/nothing to do with Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well that's like your opinion.I have at least gone through the movie clip as well as the novel. But it's not like your argument isn't the same old as well lol. Same old Dooku was tired, it wasn't fair on him.
My Main Points/TL;DR:
This probably reads like a 'One Big Mob' post, so I don't expect you to address this behemoth point-by-point...
• The Novel shows us a fight completely different to the one on screen and thus, can't be used to supplement the movie.
• The contradiction of a specific scene doesn't need to be had for the novel to be invalid. Depicting a completely different fight to the higher canon movie - thanks to additional events - is undeniable.
These are the main issues that really determine whether we can reach a result. But hey, you've been debating this Anakin stance with greats like Nai as early as 2009, so I don't think I can change your mind now.