Originally posted by CuckedCurry
A euphemism for low tier 💃Don’t worry Meatpants you’re not Muser tier :/
Saying a post is "Muser tier" is basically like saying your gender fluid rather then a guy or a girl. Its a way to describe a state of potential, and is a excellent way to describe something without giving useful information.
Also yes, most of the time a Muser Tier post is pretty bad.
(1/2)
Meatpants
I'm quite confident that people would agree with the following:Sora Bulq > Quinlan Vos > Aayla Secura
Meatpants
Now, Agen Kolar appears to be solidly > Vos and Secura, the former of whom, as you pointed out, contended with Sora Bulq, and beat Secura. Since Secura is the lowest of the three, we'll begin with her. Even though I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that Jinn > Secura, I still think it's a good idea to establish his accolades from the start. Secura has decent accolades.
Meatpants
She's a confirmed master of Ataru and Jar Kai, and skilled in unarmed combat. She even gave Vos a run for his money, though from the two comic pages I've seen, it appears to me that Vos was temporarily surprised and thrown off balance, rather than Secura being a definitive match or superior.
Meatpants
The problem is, apart from the Aurra stuff (which isn't really that solid to begin with), Jinn just has superior feats. For starters, he's confirmed council tier. In terms of physicality, one could attempt to argue for Secura's age and agility, though this hardly affects the outcome.
Meatpants
Jinn is a confirmed match in skill for Darth Maul, which can be extracted from these three quotes:The combatants surged back and forth across the flats...
The Phantom Menace NovelisationHe had matched Maul's furious strokes with a disciplined intensity of his own.
End Gameand
Then, just when Qui-Gon's stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul's favour, the incomprehensible had occured: Qui-Gon had fled.
End GameFrom these, we know that Jinn is a confirmed match in skill to TPM Maul, as he "matched Maul's furious strokes with a disciplined intensity of his own." They were surging back and forth, indicating that Jinn was capable of putting Maul on the defensive regularly, rather than just holding on. Finally, we're told that the battle only started tipping in Maul's favour when Jinn's stamina gave way (he's 60 year-old)..
End Game
Then, just when Qui-Gon’s stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul’s favor, the incomprehensible had occurred: Qui-Gon had fled. Instead of standing fast and fighting to the finish, he had bounded onto the lowered boarding ramp of the Royal Starship as it was lifting off, leaving Maul—sandblasted as much by disenchantment as raw anger—to watch the craft disappear into Tatooine’s blue sky.
Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing him that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel the Jedi beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him.
TPM
Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly. The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would provide any chance of escape.
TPM
Qui-Gon had barely managed to scramble up the rampway and into the interior of the ship before the hatch sealed and the Nubian began to accelerate. He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling.
Meatpants
Now, I'm aware that there's more factors to the fight, such as Maul's minor injury, but I don't really feel like this really affected the battle that much.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Jumping to the docking bay's deck, the pirate shook his fur, and his glittering, decorative shards reflected the lights from the bright lamps that illuminated the docking bay. The light momentarily dazzled Maul's vision, causing him to lose focus as the pirate swung his vibro-axe. Maul jumped away, but not before the vibro-axe's blade caught his leg. Maul felt the blade slice into his flesh. He bared his teeth as if he were biting on the pain itself.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul cut the bike's engine and leaped from it, sailing over the Jedi's head as he activated his lightsaber in midair. The Jedi activated his own green-bladed lightsaber and raised it fast to block Maul's sweeping blade. The lightsabers met with a bright flash of energy before Maul landed on his feet in a tight crouch.The pain in his leg was exquisite.
Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge. If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He meets my ferocity with his own. His lightsaber swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like.It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best.
Meatpants
You could try and argue that during the Naboo duel, Maul was matching both Jinn and Obi simultaneously, but Maul also had his double-bladed lightsaber to use, meaning that it was easier to deal with two opponents, and more importantly it was extremely unorthodox as a weapon. If Maul was using a single blade, I highly doubt he'd be able to hold off both Jedi simultaneously as easily, if at all.
Insider 62
Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form IV's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII skills of Darth Maul.
TPM
Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.
TPM script
The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once,
flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.
TPM
But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.
Meatpants
So when it comes to agility, Jinn was capable of roughly matching the considerably agile and skilled Darth Maul in sabers during a high-intensity duel with no preparation, so Secura has no advantage there. Even in his earlier years, Jinn was able to match the agile Tahl during an exhibition tournament, and beating her. His more grounded and heavy-handed approach to Ataru didn't diminish his ability to deal with agile opponents.Overall, I think it's safe to posit that Jinn was roughly equal in skill* to TPM Maul, who is confirmed as one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the Sith order. Rough parity against that is an accolade that easily surpasses any accolade Aayla Secura holds. On top of that, Jinn has the accolade of being recognised as one of the greatest pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order.
(2/2)
Meatpants
*NB: Darth Maul is solidly > Qui-Gon in sabers. All I'm saying is that Jinn's Saber skills are implied to be roughly equal to Maul's, and that his defeat would be due to his flagging stamina, not any deficiency in skill. Furthermore, Maul was "almost" thrown off guard by Jinn's response to Maul's surprise attack, causing him to throw away his usual strategies and combinations within seconds of the duel starting, which to me implies that Jinn would have killed Maul if the latter hadn't adapted within seconds of the duel starting Maul noted that Jinn had perfect balance in the sand, after noting himself that he was proud of his own balance. He was also concerned that Qui-Gon knew his moves before even he knew them, an indicator of Jinn's heavy experience and a testament that he could predict the moves of a Juyo practicioner confirmed as one of the most highly trained Sith in history, before that Sith knew the moves himself. But enough Jinn wanking, I know that Maul > Jinn solidly, but this is implied as being more due to Jinn's flagging stamina, not his Saber skills, which are again implied as roughly equal to Maul's.
Meatpants
Jinn then clearly has far superior combat accolades to Secura, and I would argue is solidly superior to her in skill, and I don't see how her force power feats match or surpass Jinn's at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he stomps Aayla, and I haven't even talked about all of Jinn's Saber accolades yet.
Meatpants
IIRC, Vos ended up using TK to beat Secura, who Jinn is solidly above in sabers as it is. Vos also beat Bulq in sabers (correct me if I mixed context here), and you yourself said that Vos matched Jinn in force fears, rather than surpassed. I really don't see how Vos beats Jinn in sabers or force, considering that Jinn is easily on that level, if not more experienced and deadly.
Whether Qui-Gon would beat Quinlan is debatable. Their shown Force feats indicate similar mastery and magnitude. Qui-Gon is a more reputable swordsman for sure, but then, Quinlan is younger and doesn't tire as quickly. But Agen trashed Quinlan anyway, so Qui-Gon being able to match Quinlan does him no good.
Meatpants
In regards to the old databank's entry on Sora Bulq:
It's clearly highly impressive, but I'm not convinced that it necessarily trumps Jinn's own Saber accolades. For example, it's logical to assume that being the one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi order >> being one of the greatest lightsaber instructors plus being a weapon master. Why? Because Jinn is stated to be solidly above Anoon Bondara, a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, a Jedi weaponmaster and described as being one of the best fighters in the Jedi order. Considering Bulq's accolade of mastering many combat techniques, Jinn has an almost identical accolade, being said to have mastered Dooku's classical fighting techniques (aka Makashi) along with many others from across the galaxy. This accolade basically confirms that Jinn is a master of Form II. Hardly surprising, he was the apprentice of Dooku, who took Jinn on due to his own prodigious lightsaber skills. Furthermore, Jinn was solidly above Juyo masters like Anoon Bondara, a form which only the most skilled master's could learn and master, indicating that Jinn had a technical understanding of every Saber form, at least the basics and how to combat them. The only advantage Bulq has from his databank entry, arguably, is that Windu chose him to experiment and create Vaapad. I don't regard this as much of an edge though. Though this is hardly indicative of superior skill to Jinn.
(From The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia).
No doubt that Jinn was technically knowledgeable. As much as Sora Bulq? I personally doubt it. I fail to see why comparing Sora Bulq to Qui-Gon is relevant, though. I only mentioned Sora because Quinlan (whom beating is Agen's main feat) held his own against him for a short amount of time. That is an impressive feat for Quinlan and thus Agen. Comparing Qui-Gon to Quinlan is, in my opinion, much more pivotal than involing Sora, because Quinlan is directly linked with Agen. Comparing Sora to Agen is opening an entirely new can of worms that would involve entirely different analogies, sources and characters to reference.
Meatpants
Oh also, I meant Bulq is roughly equal to Vos, not superior. I haven't mentioned Kolar yet because I wanted to establish Jinn's mastery vis-a-vis those who are presumably below Agen Kolar to demonstrate that Jinn is actually in his tier. I also apologize again for the formatting, I had to do this on my phone on the move!
MeatpantsAlso to quickly add to what I said, Agen Kolar is solid above the three others, who are of themselves roughly at parity with each other. Therefore, proving Jinn > them proves that he wouldn't get trashed by Kolar like Vos was.
My stance is still that Agen's trashing of Quinlan is more impressive than Qui-Gon being inferior to Maul, especially in mind with Quinlan's own considerable prowess as a warrior and Force adept.