Originally posted by Meatpants
Thanks.Also, Intr3pid, do you think Jinn > Tiin? That dude doesn't really have the feats that Agen Kolar has tbh.
Okay, I'm going to condense our points to be more concise and prevent the argument from getting any longer (which it already is somewhat). Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far your arguments are based on these two points:
1. Agen Kolar has been shown to be definitively > Quinlan Vos in a lightsaber duel. It remains to be proven whether Jinn is a match for Quinlan Vos at all, let alone above him. Jinn's fights against Maul are not > Agen Kolar's straight up smackdown of Quinlan Vos.
2. Agen Kolar has an out-of-universe accolade of being one of the greatest swordsmen the Order ever produced; whereas Jinn's regularly cited one describes how he is "generally" considered one of the greatest pure swordsmen in the history of the Order. Therefore, Agen Kolar's accolade > Jinn's because it's more definitive and reliable, since it can't be interpreted as opinion. This also applies to Sora Bulq's accolade from the old Databank.
Point 2 can be easily addressed. Jinn not only has the aforementioned accolade:
Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
but is reinforced by:
Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order.
-TPM Novelisation
and:
The final battle with Darth Maul in the Theed power generator was fast, furious, and fatal. Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards, no longer had the stamina of youth.
-TPM Novelisation
Obi-Wan also notes to himself in the TPM novel that Qui-Gon "was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen..." We can conclude then, that Jinn has definitive out-of-universe statements giving him the accolade of being one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order, and there's no reason to believe that Sora Bulq's or Agen Kolar's virtually identical accolades are superior.
Now, I'll briefly sum up my thoughts concerning Maul and Jinn before moving onto Jinn's superiority to Quinlan Vos. There's a plethora of sources on the Tantooine and Naboo duels, and most of them always mention/imply that the primary factor for Jinn's inferiority to Maul is his age and flagging stamina. It'd be a waste of time copying out every single quote from every single source here, since you're presumably familiar with them anyway. Yes, the sources also say that Maul was more than a match for Jinn in more areas than one, but overall the implication is that Jinn's age and deteriorating stamina were the primary causes of that inferiority. Again, Maul is more skilled, but my points are that:
1. Jinn forced Maul to completely reshuffle his approach within two seconds of the fight beginning; and it's implied that if Maul hadn't done that, he would have been killed, "almost" catching Maul off his guard from the very onset of the duel.
2. In contrast, within the first couple of seconds of Maul's duel with Anoon Bondara, Maul instantly knew that he was going to be the victor. This signifies a clear distinction of superiority between Jinn and a renowned Jedi Weaponmaster.
3. Following Maul's new approach, he is disturbed by Jinn's perfect balance in the sand and ability to know his own moves before he made them.
4. When Maul finally gains the upper hand due to Jinn's flagging stamina, Maul seems quite surprised, from my interpretation, as if how the duel was going to pan out over time was somewhat in question, rather than being a surefire one-ended fight.
5. Maul "confesses" that Jinn is a challenge; unlike Agen Kolar's swift takedown of Quinlan Vos.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
Why does it matter if Maul used a double-bladed lightsaber? That was just his weapon of choice, and yes, it was well suited for engaging Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but his dexterity and agility also played a part in that. Beyond that, Maul exceeds Qui-Gon in sheer lightsaber skill as well as fighting ability.
My point is that the saberstaff allowed Maul to better combat both Jedi simultaneously. If he had a single saber, I actually don't see Maul being quite as capable of fending off against both Jedi.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
Qui-Gon temporarily matched an injured Maul but would still most likely have lost had the fight continued. Then, with Obi-Wan's help, they were still getting outfought despite being 2 against 1. So, quite obviously in my opinion, Qui-Gon was not on Maul's level in anything.
I said that Jinn was roughly equal to Maul in skill and fighting ability; at least enough for Maul to be forced to change his fighting style within seconds of the start of the duel on Tantooine; become worried at Jinn's balance and precog during the duel; and confess that the old swordmaster was a legitimate challenge. These are impressive feats for Jinn considering his place as a tier 7 duelist opposing a tier 8 one.
Originally posted by Intr3pId
Anyway, where is it said that Anoon mastered all forms of lightsaber combat and was one of the best fighters in the Order?
On the first point, he was a Weapon Master and evidence points heavily towards Bondara being the temple battlemaster and instructor before Cin Drallig. On top of that, he was a Juyo practitioner. It's hard to believe that, under these circumstances, he wasn't a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, at least in a technical sense, as Cin Drallig was.
As for the second point, for one it's been explicitly stated in the sources that Juyo is only used by the most skilled masters in the order; furthermore we're told that Bondara is considered by peers and apprentices as having unmatched combat prowess. Bondara disagreed with this, as he sparred with superior duelists like Jinn and Windu, but the Jedi Academy: Training Manual is sure to note that Bondara's skills are, nonetheless, considerable.
Moving onto Quinlan Vos, his victory against Sora Bulq was with the aid of Secura, and he was matched quite evenly with Secura herself in of their duels. Evidently, Vos is comparable in skill to Secura. Neither of these two have saber accolades that beat Jinn's. For starters, neither of them are ever claimed as council tier, whereas Jinn has been on multiple occasions. Jinn is described in multiple quotes as one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order. Secura has a similar one about being one of the most skilled Jedi fighters, but it isn't clarified whether this applies to the current Jedi or the history of the Order. Even then, the accolade of swordsman as opposed to fighter gives a lot more confidence to Jinn's abilities, at least in my opinion, not to mention that Jinn has a handful of quotes that mention his swordsmanship, whereas Secura appears to have one (correct me if I'm wrong there). To add to that, Dooku considered Vos' dueling abilities as "appalling", yet we can hardly expect Dooku to have thought the same of Jinn's own swordplay. Dooku was apparently also unimpressed by AotC Kenobi's display as well, referencing the fact that he expected more from Qui-Gon's apprentice. We're not sure how much of this was truth and how much was to toy with Kenobi, but the point is that Dooku regarded Vos' dueling skills as sloppy. Dooku also taught Vos' some Makashi, but as I've proven in my last post, Jinn was had mastered the form.
In conclusion? If we look just at sabers for now, we find the following: both are masters of Ataru, but where Jinn was the apprentice of Dooku and presumably sparred with him numerous times to hone his swordplay, Vos' own dueling abilities were "appalling" to Dooku. Jinn is a confirmed council tier master, and has a handful of quotes testifying him as one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order. Vos has no such accolades to match that. Where Vos has at best Shien to add to the fray, and some stuff from Dooku, Jinn not only has mastered Makashi from the master of Makashi himself, but has sparred with said master long enough to understand Ataru's weaknesses, and more importantly: how to exploit these weaknesses. Nothing suggests that Jinn was incapable of adapting to the agility of an opponent like Vos. During one of his duels with Xanatos, Jinn is described as adapting his style in confined spaces when needed:
Still Qui-Gon adapted his style to fit the area. He used short jabs, sometimes falling on one knee to come at Xanatos from below.
-Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple
This further reinforces the idea that Jinn implemented Makashi into his Ataru with ease. Not to mention that his more grounded approach sounds like a heavily Dooku influenced style that relied on precision and strength of Ataru over the acrobatic maneuvers of the form. Vos is completely and utterly outmatched. He is not council tier, he has no accolade placing him above Jinn as a swordsman, Jinn's master describes Vos' form as sloppy, and Jinn has mastered and implemented Makashi into his personal style, a direct counter against Ataru users. Overall? Vos is a mid-tier 7 duelist, and Jinn, along with Agen Kolar, Tiin and Fisto is a high 7 tier duelist.
Your move 🙂
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
What position are you arguing for MP? So far you haven't exactly proved why Qui Gon is better than Agen actually. Though you are pretty good otherwise
That Jinn > Kolar. I'm only mentioning Vos because it's hard to debate Jinn/Kolar when both have like, really universal accolades. Kolar stomped Vos, so clearly if Jinn was on that level, he'd also beat Vos in a similar time.
(1/2)
Meatpants
Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far your arguments are based on these two points:1. Agen Kolar has been shown to be definitively > Quinlan Vos in a lightsaber duel. It remains to be proven whether Jinn is a match for Quinlan Vos at all, let alone above him. Jinn's fights against Maul are not > Agen Kolar's straight up smackdown of Quinlan Vos.
Meatpants
2. Agen Kolar has an out-of-universe accolade of being one of the greatest swordsmen the Order ever produced; whereas Jinn's regularly cited one describes how he is "generally" considered one of the greatest pure swordsmen in the history of the Order. Therefore, Agen Kolar's accolade > Jinn's because it's more definitive and reliable, since it can't be interpreted as opinion. This also applies to Sora Bulq's accolade from the old Databank.
Meatpants
Point 2 can be easily addressed. Jinn not only has the aforementioned accolade:Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopediabut is reinforced by:
Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order.
-TPM Novelisationand:
The final battle with Darth Maul in the Theed power generator was fast, furious, and fatal. Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards, no longer had the stamina of youth.
-TPM NovelisationObi-Wan also notes to himself in the TPM novel that Qui-Gon "was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen..." We can conclude then, that Jinn has definitive out-of-universe statements giving him the accolade of being one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order, and there's no reason to believe that Sora Bulq's or Agen Kolar's virtually identical accolades are superior.
Sora's accolade pertaining to his status as one of the greatest lightsaber instructors of all time is indisputable. Neither Qui-Gon nor Agen are praised similarly in an out-of-universe source, to my knowledge. So Sora wins in a battle of accolades.
Meatpants
Now, I'll briefly sum up my thoughts concerning Maul and Jinn before moving onto Jinn's superiority to Quinlan Vos. There's a plethora of sources on the Tantooine and Naboo duels, and most of them always mention/imply that the primary factor for Jinn's inferiority to Maul is his age and flagging stamina. It'd be a waste of time copying out every single quote from every single source here, since you're presumably familiar with them anyway. Yes, the sources also say that Maul was more than a match for Jinn in more areas than one, but overall the implication is that Jinn's age and deteriorating stamina were the primary causes of that inferiority. Again, Maul is more skilled, but my points are that:
Meatpants
1. Jinn forced Maul to completely reshuffle his approach within two seconds of the fight beginning; and it's implied that if Maul hadn't done that, he would have been killed, "almost" catching Maul off his guard from the very onset of the duel.
Meatpants
2. In contrast, within the first couple of seconds of Maul's duel with Anoon Bondara, Maul instantly knew that he was going to be the victor. This signifies a clear distinction of superiority between Jinn and a renowned Jedi Weaponmaster.
Meatpants
3. Following Maul's new approach, he is disturbed by Jinn's perfect balance in the sand and ability to know his own moves before he made them
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hangar deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber, he anticipated their moves with ease. Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them. But if the Jedi held no surprises in combat, Maul knew he had his Master to thank for that. If not for his Master, he never would have been a match for two Jedi at the same time.
Meatpants
4. When Maul finally gains the upper hand due to Jinn's flagging stamina, Maul seems quite surprised, from my interpretation, as if how the duel was going to pan out over time was somewhat in question, rather than being a surefire one-ended fight.
Meatpants
5. Maul "confesses" that Jinn is a challenge; unlike Agen Kolar's swift takedown of Quinlan Vos.
Meatpants
My point is that the saberstaff allowed Maul to better combat both Jedi simultaneously. If he had a single saber, I actually don't see Maul being quite as capable of fending off against both Jedi.
TPM
But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.
Meatpants
I said that Jinn was roughly equal to Maul in skill and fighting ability; at least enough for Maul to be forced to change his fighting style within seconds of the start of the duel on Tantooine; become worried at Jinn's balance and precog during the duel; and confess that the old swordmaster was a legitimate challenge. These are impressive feats for Jinn considering his place as a tier 7 duelist opposing a tier 8 one.
Meatpants
On the first point, he was a Weapon Master and evidence points heavily towards Bondara being the temple battlemaster and instructor before Cin Drallig. On top of that, he was a Juyo practitioner. It's hard to believe that, under these circumstances, he wasn't a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, at least in a technical sense, as Cin Drallig was.
Meatpants
As for the second point, for one it's been explicitly stated in the sources that Juyo is only used by the most skilled masters in the order; furthermore we're told that Bondara is considered by peers and apprentices as having unmatched combat prowess. Bondara disagreed with this, as he sparred with superior duelists like Jinn and Windu, but the Jedi Academy: Training Manual is sure to note that Bondara's skills are, nonetheless, considerable.
(2/2)
Meatpants
Moving onto Quinlan Vos, his victory against Sora Bulq was with the aid of Secura, and he was matched quite evenly with Secura herself in of their duels. Evidently, Vos is comparable in skill to Secura. Neither of these two have saber accolades that beat Jinn's. For starters, neither of them are ever claimed as council tier, whereas Jinn has been on multiple occasions. Jinn is described in multiple quotes as one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order. Secura has a similar one about being one of the most skilled Jedi fighters, but it isn't clarified whether this applies to the current Jedi or the history of the Order. Even then, the accolade of swordsman as opposed to fighter gives a lot more confidence to Jinn's abilities, at least in my opinion, not to mention that Jinn has a handful of quotes that mention his swordsmanship, whereas Secura appears to have one (correct me if I'm wrong there). To add to that, Dooku considered Vos' dueling abilities as "appalling", yet we can hardly expect Dooku to have thought the same of Jinn's own swordplay. Dooku was apparently also unimpressed by AotC Kenobi's display as well, referencing the fact that he expected more from Qui-Gon's apprentice. We're not sure how much of this was truth and how much was to toy with Kenobi, but the point is that Dooku regarded Vos' dueling skills as sloppy. Dooku also taught Vos' some Makashi, but as I've proven in my last post, Jinn was had mastered the form.
As for Dooku's opinion on Quinlan's lightsaber skills, I see your point, but then, Dooku commended Tholme for his skills. As we know, Tholme and Quinlan were roughly even.
https://i.imgur.com/qqJONiV.png
Meatpants
In conclusion? If we look just at sabers for now, we find the following: both are masters of Ataru, but where Jinn was the apprentice of Dooku and presumably sparred with him numerous times to hone his swordplay, Vos' own dueling abilities were "appalling" to Dooku. Jinn is a confirmed council tier master, and has a handful of quotes testifying him as one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order. Vos has no such accolades to match that. Where Vos has at best Shien to add to the fray, and some stuff from Dooku, Jinn not only has mastered Makashi from the master of Makashi himself, but has sparred with said master long enough to understand Ataru's weaknesses, and more importantly: how to exploit these weaknesses. Nothing suggests that Jinn was incapable of adapting to the agility of an opponent like Vos. During one of his duels with Xanatos, Jinn is described as adapting his style in confined spaces when needed:This further reinforces the idea that Jinn implemented Makashi into his Ataru with ease. Not to mention that his more grounded approach sounds like a heavily Dooku influenced style that relied on precision and strength of Ataru over the acrobatic maneuvers of the form. Vos is completely and utterly outmatched. He is not council tier, he has no accolade placing him above Jinn as a swordsman, Jinn's master describes Vos' form as sloppy, and Jinn has mastered and implemented Makashi into his personal style, a direct counter against Ataru users. Overall? Vos is a mid-tier 7 duelist, and Jinn, along with Agen Kolar, Tiin and Fisto is a high 7 tier duelist.
Also, remember: Agen stomped Quinlan. That is practically irrefutable. So even if Qui-Gon is better than Quinlan (a stance that I think can be very reasonably argued), he will have to be MUCH better than Quinlan to match Agen. That I don't see as true.
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