Originally posted by carver9
He said the spelled reversed across the GLOBE. Nothing was mentioned about anything outside of that. If he would've destroyed the sun in that instance, the earth would've been gone. No disputing this. The spell took place in some time after that.
He said EVERYTHING would go back to how it was. And that all of reality would unravel if he didn't.
Literally posted the scans for you...
Originally posted by carver9
He already said Global fix. No way of denying this, Saint. At least you tried.
And everything. Plus unravelling reality.
Look, the spell that made everyone Bizarro was GLOBAL in scale - I am not denying it. It's not like the GLs or Rann or Thanagar was turned into Bizarros - it only affected DC Earth.
I 100 % agree. 10,000000% agree.
Superman then reversed that global spell. And it was reversed ACROSS the globe. Says so on panel.
But reversing that global spell ALSO put EVERYTHING back to what it was. Which includes the Sun.
If I cast a spell that only affects my house, but one of my household goes out on the street and destroys the cars in the neighborhood..... reversing the spell (that only affects my house) would indeed ....be on a household scale. Because that original spell was only on my house.
But the destruction of the cars in the neighborhood? That's not the original spell (remember my spell only affected my house).
HOWEVER, if putting that spell back ALSO puts EVERYTHING back to what it was....then the cars would also be back to being brand new.
Superman mind was being tampered with during that entire exchange. There's simply NO evidence he destroyed the sun. On the same page, we saw a gigantic Bizzaro. It even states on the same page that Superman brain was being messed with by Bizarro. It even mentions him dying 13 times in the next panel. Everything in that scene was mental games minus him jacking up earth. You have no proof, NONE.
Originally posted by carver9
Superman mind was being tampered with during that entire exchange. There's simply NO evidence he destroyed the sun. On the same page, we saw a gigantic Bizzaro. It even states on the same page that Superman brain was being messed with by Bizarro. It even mentions him dying 13 times in the next panel. Everything in that scene was mental games minus him jacking up earth. You have no proof, NONE.
I wouldn't say no proof, NONE.
First, we have the Joker saying that as Bizarro takes control of his mind, he will start to take control of his physical form as well:
We then see Superman, all constipated, shitting a baby out:
Note that Bizarro isn't physically there, but Superman's grunting and face shows he's fighting mentally.
Then we see him fighting physically with himself:
But even then, all the times he dies etc, he is still physically not being attacked - we see this because the Joker is talking to him in the physical world, and no Bizarro is physically present:
So to recap: When Superman is in the physical, real, world (i.e. talking to Joker etc, Bizarro isn't physically present, but in his head.
Agreed?
And when Superman is in the mental world, Bizarro is physically there, literally punching him in the face.
Agreed?
So when he flies off to destroy the sun, what does he say? 'Get out of my head'.
Strange thing to say if it is all in his mind.
We then see him being controlled mentally (no Bizarro physically present):
Remember what Joker said - his physical form will increasingly be controlled by Bizarro. In all the fights we see him have with Bizarro, Bizarro does not actually control Superman's 'mental' body. Only in the physical world does Superman punch himself, or fly and do stuff he doesn't want to.
Grunting like he's shitting a baby again. It's not the mindscape, because Bizarro isn't there. He's clutching his head screaming, because he's being attacked in his mind by Bizarro:
Note this. Remember how every time he was killed by Bizarro in the previous panels? In his mind, it looked like this:
https://i.postimg.cc/Vknp06KZ/16-7.jpg
Bizarro is there, punching the shit out of him.
But in the physical world, it was just him clutching himself and grunting.
So now look at how Bizarro kills him another 13 times:
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnQ2pyk2/19-10.jpg
He's just there, grabbing his head and smiling as Bizarro takes over.
So circling back to this scan:
He's being attacked in his mind by Bizarro. Whilst his physical body is surrounded by the remnants of the sun he just destroyed.
🤦🏿...
After flying out of the van, it shows him in space, fighting Bizarro...
Crazy thing is, the next panel, shows that he never flew off, he was still on top of the building.
The page after that shows him and Bizarro still fighting in space...
Guess where he is at in the next page?
Also, guess where he is at after the sun explosion showing. He never left the building, lol
Originally posted by carver9
🤦🏿...After flying out of the van, it shows him in space, fighting Bizarro...
Crazy thing is, the next panel, shows that he never flew off, he was still on top of the building.
The page after that shows him and Bizarro still fighting in space...
Guess where he is at in the next page?
Also, guess where he is at after the sun explosion showing. He never left the building, lol
Because it is flipping between mental states and physical states. I agree. I am not saying that the comic DOESN'T do so. It flips between both states. Bizarro choking him out in the mental world = him choking himself out in the real world, as Bizarro is controlling his body.
What, then, is your explanation for him dying 13 times at Bizarro's hands....but we don't actually see Bizarro physically present? Or when he flies off to the Sun (the crucial panel) - he's saying no, no, I won't - is Bizarro physically there?
Basically, I am saying that until his eyes are purple and his skin is white, if Bizarro is not physically present, then it takes place in the real physical world. If we DO see Bizarro, then it takes place in the mind.
When he is destroying the Sun, Bizarro isn't there.
I'm telling you that based off the scenes, he never left earth. It skips back and forth to them having mental battles with the fight taking place in space while Clark is literally in the same spot the entire time. Even after the sun scene, he is literally standing in the same spot. He never left earth. That entire scene took place inside of his head.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Same as usual. Elder Gods are above the gods of Earth. Skyfathers are definitely below the likes of Cthton, Gaea, Set, Oshtur, etc. Now it's been established that Tiwaz (Odin's grandfather), Toranos and Utgard-Loki were also Elder Gods and not just Skyfathers. Gaia has been hinted as having universal importance during Chaos War but that clashed with all we knew of the Demiurge and Gaea before and since. Gaea seemed to be responsible for most, if not all, life on Earth once Atum ate and drove away all the other warring Elder Gods.
So in Marvel, how does the whole Elder God thing work then? They are....above? Below? the gods of Earth? Is Gaia god of all planets? Did the gods create life or was it Gaia?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85The absence of Bizarro isn't evidence that what's happening is real. For instance, in the prior issue, Superman appears to heatvision a whole bunch of surrounding Bizarro'ed citizens, torpedoes a building and a helicopter. Then it bounces back to reality where he is still kneeling on the ground surrounded by those same Bizarro'ed citizens. That spate of violence was all in his head. Yet, Bizarro wasn't there.
Because it is flipping between mental states and physical states. I agree. I am not saying that the comic DOESN'T do so. It flips between both states. Bizarro choking him out in the mental world = him choking himself out in the real world, as Bizarro is controlling his body.What, then, is your explanation for him dying 13 times at Bizarro's hands....but we don't actually see Bizarro physically present? Or when he flies off to the Sun (the crucial panel) - he's saying no, no, I won't - is Bizarro physically there?
Basically, I am saying that until his eyes are purple and his skin is white, if Bizarro is not physically present, then it takes place in the real physical world. If we DO see Bizarro, then it takes place in the mind.
When he is destroying the Sun, Bizarro isn't there.
Next issue starts with Superman trying to locate Bizarro within his own mindscape, a "Mind-Earth" which is impressively a lifescale mindscape replica of the real Earth. During the mindscape battle, buildings are destroyed, he gets punched straight through the planet, the entire Australian continent is cracked apart, and the Mind-Earth itself gets Bizarro'ed into a Bizarro-cubed Earth. He proceeds to resist by fighting Bizarro mentally but dies another 89 times within his own mind.
Yet, in the real world, Superman is on top the Daily Planet globe w/ Bizarro'ed Joker.
Then we see Superman blow through Bizarro's gigantic form (Bizarro getting bigger is a sign he's winning the mental battle). Bizarro sees the folly of trying to fight him directly and influences Superman to destroy the "Mind-Sun" in his own mindscape torturing him a different way. Superman proceeds to suffer and die yet another 13 times thereafter in his own mind. And finally, Superman is "completely" Bizarro'ed.
Where is the Bizarro'ed Superman in real life? Floating right above Bizarro'ed Joker over the Daily Planet globe where we all agree he was physically. Looks like he never physically left.
The contention is that, at some point, Superman actually flies to the real sun and heat visions it. But are you also arguing that the widescale environmental destruction and Australian continent-sinking was also done in real-life? Doubt it.
As for the notion that the sky was all dark and only started gleaming with sunlight after Superman reversed the spell? Read everything prior to the sun-busting. Once Bizarro'ed Joker was driving Superman around in an icecream truck, the real-life skies were dark and full of rain and lightning.
Seems more like the catastrophic planet-wide and star-busting wide feats all happened in Superman's mind.
