Originally posted by -Pr-Spiderman, not so much and certainly not in his personality, however, his whole thing is putting the beat down on street punks who cannot fight him back. Someone snatches a purse and Spidey slaps them, then hangs them upside down from a lamp post... But no Spidey isn't a fascist. Superman... Originally he got his powers from his "Super Race's". "Superiorness". That kind of sounds familiar, Supes lays the smackdown still on normal humans whilst being a God. To go further Dupes even strays beyond fascism into the realms of religious iconography in the DC Universe, whilst never losing the facts he appears a "White Male".
This thread... Wow.Civil War I, Civil War II, Iceman, Female Thor, Ironheart, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Wonder Woman.
All those comics had writers shoving their own shit in to it and doing it poorly. No nuance. No subtlety. And it's not like "good writing" is some abstract ****ing concept. Even I can understand the difference.
And then there's stuff like the Christopher Priest story.
You say that, and I do agree that most Nazis deserve a slap. The "slap a Jap" thing, though? Horribly racist.
Are you... suggesting that at their core, people like Superman and Spider-Man are ultimately fascist?
Other than that, you did touch on something that I think truly gets lost in the discussion. There are always going to be people that are scumbags. That hate anyone that isn't like them. But not everyone that doesn't like, say Captain Marvel's push is one of those people. Some people just don't like bad writing, or having character they grew up reading treated like shit. Or writers spouting in interviews about how their own biases are going to heavily impact their work.
You said that most comic writers are liberal, and I think they are, but I think that the kind of liberal, say, Grant Morrison is, is not the same kind of liberal that put out a lot of the comics people are complaining about.
Superheroes are a cowardly bunch, they never get older, never really have consequences, most have come back from the dead at least once and for guys like Wonderman and Wolverine, it's almost a weekend hobby. Yet they dictate who does what, whilst being completely unelected and having a mandate purely because as with Homelander in the Boys a Fascist Parody of Supes, they are to damn powerful to stop doing what they want. That line from Batman Vs. Superman rings true, he answers to no one, not even God I think.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Spiderman, not so much and certainly not in his personality, however, his whole thing is putting the beat down on street punks who cannot fight him back. Someone snatches a purse and Spidey slaps them, then hangs them upside down from a lamp post... But no Spidey isn't a fascist. Superman... Originally he got his powers from his "Super Race's". "Superiorness". That kind of sounds familiar, Supes lays the smackdown still on normal humans whilst being a God. To go further Dupes even strays beyond fascism into the realms of religious iconography in the DC Universe, whilst never losing the facts he appears a "White Male".
When there's something wrong in the neighborhood, who you gonna call? It looks like a job for White Guy in a Cape with a square jaw. I know what you are going to say that two young Jewish guys created him, true, and I think he isn't a fascist icon. It is easy to see him in those terms though.Superheroes are a cowardly bunch, they never get older, never really have consequences, most have come back from the dead at least once and for guys like Wonderman and Wolverine, it's almost a weekend hobby. Yet they dictate who does what, whilst being completely unelected and having a mandate purely because as with Homelander in the Boys a Fascist Parody of Supes, they are to damn powerful to stop doing what they want. That line from Batman Vs. Superman rings true, he answers to no one, not even God I think.
I'm not really going to say anything, other than that I pretty much disagree with almost everything you just said.
But that's me.
Originally posted by -Pr-and that's fine mate, I'm not even sure I agree with all of it, I'm just putting a few observations out there about how people can read what they want into things without those things always having an agenda.
I'm not really going to say anything, other than that I pretty much disagree with almost everything you just said.But that's me.
Actually baptism of fire 🔥 is not all comics are or power if you choose to call it that. Beast works around the clock 🕰 to find genetic answers for you and me. If he could genetically make a horizon event you’d see how the earth can be flat for instance. All the hero’s lives are in fun competitions with the world. Enjoy.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
and that's fine mate, I'm not even sure I agree with all of it, I'm just putting a few observations out there about how people can read what they want into things without those things always having an agenda.
And that's fine. Things being open to interpretation, or even interpreted a certain way when they're not supposed to be, is fine too.
My issue is when writers shove their own shit in, in such a blatant way that it inevitably hurts the quality of the book.
Originally posted by -Pr-Nut does it always hurt the book or just your perception as a fan. I hated it back in the eighties at the time when Rhodey took over as Iron Man. But rereading they were great stories. If it happened today, I bet loads of people would be saying SJW's made Iron Man Black. How coloured (no pun intended) are we by the rhetoric around us.
And that's fine. Things being open to interpretation, or even interpreted a certain way when they're not supposed to be, is fine too.My issue is when writers shove their own shit in, in such a blatant way that it inevitably hurts the quality of the book.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Nut does it always hurt the book or just your perception as a fan. I hated it back in the eighties at the time when Rhodey took over as Iron Man. But rereading they were great stories. If it happened today, I bet loads of people would be saying SJW's made Iron Man Black. How coloured (no pun intended) are we by the rhetoric around us.
I agree with you, but that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about.
I'll give you an example.
Let's say you worked at Marvel, and they said "we want you to work on a New X-Men comic that introduces a bunch of new team members". They tell you they want the team to be a diverse mix of ethnicities, sexualities and the like. You say "okay", and you go away and get to work.
There are, if we break it down, two ways to approach this:
A good writer, would try to make each character unique, and recognise that all the things about them, all of their characteristics, a part of an interesting whole character that will have the kind of longevity someone like, say, Storm has. A good writer might use a senior X-Man like Storm or Cyclops or Wolverine as a guide through all of this murky stuff, because they've been through all this before. A goood writer would want to show that there's common ground between them, and an acceptance of each other as students and teachers.
So when Wolverine shows acceptance in a way that feels natural, we feel it too. See: Wally West, Kyle Rayner, the GSXM team, any number of Avengers.
A bad writer, would bring in the kids. Maybe they'd have a teacher. The writer would tell us that these new kids are the bestest, most specialist X-Men ever, and are so much better than the ones that came before, but wouldn't show how powerful they are in any meaningful way. They'd write the previous X-Men, superhero veterans that they are, as incompetent or just plain wrong about everything. And they might get beaten up a lot, only to be saved by these special kids.
And that's just for starters. Here's an example of a good writer having to deal with the kind of shit editors want:
This right here? This is a perfect example of why comics are struggling. People who just wanted to write about superheroes got supplanted by people who were only interested in scoring what they think are points to show how great they are at being tolerant, but only to those that fit in to the little boxes they want them to be in. Gay men are effeminate, lesbians are only butch if they want to have one of them "be the man". A Muslim is never "too Muslim", but if they are, they get shoved in to the background because that offends certain people's sensibilities.
I grew up reading comics that told me "we're all essentially the same, even with our differences". Now I'm being told by condescending assholes that no, certain people are not the same, but we're doing them a favour by including them in our work.
Originally posted by -Pr-I'm enjoying this chat, I have to give my daughter a kiss and get some sleep. I will reply properly tomorrow mate 👆
I agree with you, but that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about.I'll give you an example.
Let's say you worked at Marvel, and they said "we want you to work on a New X-Men comic that introduces a bunch of new team members". They tell you they want the team to be a diverse mix of ethnicities, sexualities and the like. You say "okay", and you go away and get to work.
There are, if we break it down, two ways to approach this:
A good writer, would try to make each character unique, and recognise that all the things about them, all of their characteristics, a part of an interesting whole character that will have the kind of longevity someone like, say, Storm has. A good writer might use a senior X-Man like Storm or Cyclops or Wolverine as a guide through all of this murky stuff, because they've been through all this before. A goood writer would want to show that there's common ground between them, and an acceptance of each other as students and teachers.
So when Wolverine shows acceptance in a way that feels natural, we feel it too. See: Wally West, Kyle Rayner, the GSXM team, any number of Avengers.
A bad writer, would bring in the kids. Maybe they'd have a teacher. The writer would tell us that these new kids are the bestest, most specialist X-Men ever, and are so much better than the ones that came before, but wouldn't show how powerful they are in any meaningful way. They'd write the previous X-Men, superhero veterans that they are, as incompetent or just plain wrong about everything. And they might get beaten up a lot, only to be saved by these special kids.
And that's just for starters. Here's an example of a good writer having to deal with the kind of shit editors want:
This right here? This is a perfect example of why comics are struggling. People who just wanted to write about superheroes got supplanted by people who were only interested in scoring what they think are points to show how great they are at being tolerant, but only to those that fit in to the little boxes they want them to be in. Gay men are effeminate, lesbians are only butch if they want to have one of them "be the man". A Muslim is never "too Muslim", but if they are, they get shoved in to the background because that offends certain people's sensibilities.
I grew up reading comics that told me "we're all essentially the same, even with our differences". Now I'm being told by condescending assholes that no, certain people are not the same, but we're doing them a favour by including them in our work.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Spiderman, not so much and certainly not in his personality, however, his whole thing is putting the beat down on street punks who cannot fight him back. Someone snatches a purse and Spidey slaps them, then hangs them upside down from a lamp post... But no Spidey isn't a fascist. Superman... Originally he got his powers from his "Super Race's". "Superiorness". That kind of sounds familiar, Supes lays the smackdown still on normal humans whilst being a God. To go further Dupes even strays beyond fascism into the realms of religious iconography in the DC Universe, whilst never losing the facts he appears a "White Male".
When there's something wrong in the neighborhood, who you gonna call? It looks like a job for White Guy in a Cape with a square jaw. I know what you are going to say that two young Jewish guys created him, true, and I think he isn't a fascist icon. It is easy to see him in those terms though.Superheroes are a cowardly bunch, they never get older, never really have consequences, most have come back from the dead at least once and for guys like Wonderman and Wolverine, it's almost a weekend hobby. Yet they dictate who does what, whilst being completely unelected and having a mandate purely because as with Homelander in the Boys a Fascist Parody of Supes, they are to damn powerful to stop doing what they want. That line from Batman Vs. Superman rings true, he answers to no one, not even God I think.
You should read the early Action Comics. Within the first five issues he knocked down a rat infested ghetto with his bare hands while the air force and army were attacking him, forcing disaster relief programs to build modern clean affordable dwellings for the underclass.
He also kidnapped a munitions manufacturer and brought him to the front lines of a skirmish.