Originally posted by One Big Mob
Terrible example. The absolute worst example you could use. If you were looking through a terrible examples pile, you somehow picked the worst one in your first grab. If you were taking a walk down Good Example Avenue, you would be like "OMG I'm so lost" until you came across Bad Example Avenue and then you'd be like "OMG I made it home!" If you were like:"Can someone give me an example of an agenda being pushed on mainstream characters? And explain why they feel it is... genuine answer please"
And then you were like:
"The whole liberal conservative argument in comics is subjective. Even though I may find Iceman being gay as forced, someone else might relate and find it organic."
You would have struck gold in one swing. You knew the best possible example right off the top of your head and still asked the question.
But yes, Iceman being gay after 50 years of random girlfriends and heartache/breakdowns over women could be construed as totally organic because one rogue telepath read his mind when 5 decades of telepaths didn't. Top notch example Sin.
👆
When they make Johnny Storm gay I'll wait for you to be like:
"Well it doesn't make sense to me but it might make sense to some. Really brave from Marvel to follow his story to its conclusion!"
In your attempt to be humourous you missed my point completely. I never said I liked or even understood the Iceman gay debacle. What i said was it may be organic to some. Is it that farfetched to believe? Y is it less likely to suspend belief for cryokinesis but not a sexuality change? Especially with a character like Iceman who has had zero relevance or defining arcs for an O5er. The same can be said of your Johnny Storm who is literally defined by his relationships with women and holds no substance outside his team dynamic. They're both man-children that need others to fill in the gap to make them somewhat interesting characters and this is coming from s longtime fan of both.
The worst part is after female Thor was introduced, Thor and Odin became misogynistic. As if one of the major points of Asgard is that they are a highly evolved society, that viewed things such as sexism and racism as ridiculous. Also, Sif, the Valkyries among other things.
Asgard is full of warrior women, and Odin viewed everyone equally. The simple fact that wielded Mjolnir should afford her great respect from Thor.
So f*cking dumb and lazy. Just completely creatively bankrupt. Butchering a character decades old to create lazy conflict/dialogue that doesn't move the story forward.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
In your attempt to be humourous you missed my point completely. I never said I liked or even understood the Iceman gay debacle. What i said was it may be organic to some. Is it that farfetched to believe? Y is it less likely to suspend belief for cryokinesis but not a sexuality change? Especially with a character like Iceman who has had zero relevance or defining arcs for an O5er. The same can be said of your Johnny Storm who is literally defined by his relationships with women and holds no substance outside his team dynamic. They're both man-children that need others to fill in the gap to make them somewhat interesting characters and this is coming from s longtime fan of both.
Zero relevance or defining arcs?
1) That's not true.
2) Why does liking d*ck change that? How does it add relevance or make a defining arc?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Zero relevance or defining arcs?1) That's not true.
2) Why does liking d*ck change that? How does it add relevance or make a defining arc?
An Iceman arc? Name one where his character is front and center. What relevance outside of being O5 by default he's a legacy tier but Storm/Logan hell Kitty has shown more character development than all of Icemans books combined.
I never said it did. Quit projecting
Originally posted by Sin I AM
In your attempt to be humourous you missed my point completely. I never said I liked or even understood the Iceman gay debacle. What i said was it may be organic to some. Is it that farfetched to believe? Y is it less likely to suspend belief for cryokinesis but not a sexuality change? Especially with a character like Iceman who has had zero relevance or defining arcs for an O5er. The same can be said of your Johnny Storm who is literally defined by his relationships with women and holds no substance outside his team dynamic. They're both man-children that need others to fill in the gap to make them somewhat interesting characters and this is coming from s longtime fan of both.
You missed the point Sin, you missed the point.
Just because you can go "Well me no undastand but sum might" that doesn't give it the subjectivity needed to make sense of it organically like it's a potential next step in a normal man. Making them gay would be like making you gay out of the blue. I don't want to prod too much but when you've never shown a hint of being a dyke, that doesn't mean after 50-60 years you should be one because the writer of your story is at an impasse.
Iceman has had arcs about him. That whole Stranger arc was basically a lesson in his importance, as Oblivion and others are. Beating up Thor too. His struggle is with realizing his powers and overcoming his own built in limits. But the solution to that is to simply focus some arcs about him. To actually try and build the character instead of going zip zop chomo you're now a homo! And then have that define everything about him where he becomes a flamer. The solution to curing his woman issues would be to have him settle down with a woman. To tackle those issues and find a nice gal or get married. It's not to reset him back to zero at the opposite sex.
And all of this with zero buildup too anywhere. How is that subjective for being organic? This isn't a case where you're like "Well I don't like Superman's new costume but some might, don't attack it!" This is about there being no buildup ever and then dropping it out left field when he's been around telepaths his whole life and been in long relationships with girls with vaginas. That's not organic, that's changing the sexual orientation of your character because you gave up. That's not building Iceman based off prior history, that's a solid sweep to his character for a cheap boost. And the funniest thing is that Bendis did absolutely nothing with it. Very organic.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The worst part is after female Thor was introduced, Thor and Odin became misogynistic. As if one of the major points of Asgard is that they are a highly evolved society, that viewed things such as sexism and racism as ridiculous. Also, Sif, the Valkyries among other things.Asgard is full of warrior women, and Odin viewed everyone equally. The simple fact that wielded Mjolnir should afford her great respect from Thor.
So f*cking dumb and lazy. Just completely creatively bankrupt. Butchering a character decades old to create lazy conflict/dialogue that doesn't move the story forward.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
You missed the point Sin, you missed the point.Just because you can go "Well me no undastand but sum might" that doesn't give it the subjectivity needed to make sense of it organically like it's a potential next step in a normal man. Making them gay would be like making you gay out of the blue. I don't want to prod too much but when you've never shown a hint of being a dyke, that doesn't mean after 50-60 years you should be one because the writer of your story is at an impasse.
Iceman has had arcs about him. That whole Stranger arc was basically a lesson in his importance, as Oblivion and others are. Beating up Thor too. His struggle is with realizing his powers and overcoming his own built in limits. But the solution to that is to simply focus some arcs about him. To actually try and build the character instead of going zip zop chomo you're now a homo! And then have that define everything about him where he becomes a flamer. The solution to curing his woman issues would be to have him settle down with a woman. To tackle those issues and find a nice gal or get married. It's not to reset him back to zero at the opposite sex.
And all of this with zero buildup too anywhere. How is that subjective for being organic? This isn't a case where you're like "Well I don't like Superman's new costume but some might, don't attack it!" This is about there being no buildup ever and then dropping it out left field when he's been around telepaths his whole life and been in long relationships with girls with vaginas. That's not organic, that's changing the sexual orientation of your character because you gave up. That's not building Iceman based off prior history, that's a solid sweep to his character for a cheap boost. And the funniest thing is that Bendis did absolutely nothing with it. Very organic.
Who exactly are you to say what's organic and isnt? His outing was terribly done but him being gay isn't exactly a stretch. You already mentioned him having problems meeting his full potential, we already know/knew his father was a racist/bigot. We know even to this day he seeks his approval and hides who he is to fit in to his dad's perception of "normal" so those relevations can't also be sexually based. Hes ha dd's a series if shitty relationships with women maybe just maybe it's because he doesn't truly want to be with a woman he does it because it's easy. Iust like he doesn't want to embrace his powers because he's scared/self doubt which could all be fueled by his unacceptance from his father. It's an easy hypothesis to surmise. A lot of times when people come out it's a surprise because we didnt see the signs. We saw what we wanted to see. But like i said. I dont agree with the outcome but i can see how some might. Being gay in and of itself is neither a plus or minus for me as far as the character goes.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Who exactly are you to say what's organic and isnt? His outing was terribly done but him being gay isn't exactly a stretch. You already mentioned him having problems meeting his full potential, we already know/knew his father was a racist/bigot. We know even to this day he seeks his approval and hides who he is to fit in to his dad's perception of "normal" so those relevations can't also be sexually based. Hes ha dd's a series if shitty relationships with women maybe just maybe it's because he doesn't truly want to be with a woman he does it because it's easy. Iust like he doesn't want to embrace his powers because he's scared/self doubt which could all be fueled by his unacceptance from his father. It's an easy hypothesis to surmise. A lot of times when people come out it's a surprise because we didnt see the signs. We saw what we wanted to see. But like i said. I dont agree with the outcome but i can see how some might. Being gay in and of itself is neither a plus or minus for me as far as the character goes.
You already don't agree so stop keeping it active with your argument from ignorance Sin. Look Sin, I don't agree with all transexuals being gassed but some might! Whoa, I didn't say it, some did bro! Like a lot of people might believe that, so let's not take that off the field. I'm not personally saying it, just like a lot of people might alright.
Yes, scared of his father so he's gay. Very organic. That basically gives headway for all mutants with very just family drama to suddenly turn gay. He has had difficult relationships like almost every mutant so let's clear the board to give him difficult relationships with men.
And when people come out in real life, we don't get their inner thoughts for hundreds to thousands of comics, and we don't have them hanging around with and having their mind read by telepaths. Some telepaths aren't even friendly either! Imagine screwing up Iceman's mind by outing him in battle! If only they would have been bad enough to do that! We also don't follow these gays in their daily life as well. If Iceman knows he was questioning his sexuality, there's little reason not to bring that up in his daily life. It could have been built up through little things but you're giving full backing to him just having basically normal issues besides his powers for people to become gay. You forget that we've also followed these characters for decades with inner monologues and thoughts. Likening it to a guy we only see on the surface level isn't the same. If Carver came out one day and went "Tried dick, liked it!" we don't know Carver as well as we've come to know Iceman. It would be surprising sure, but it's not into someone we've had any real knowledge of besides his characters he defends.
Where is the organic nature of this that would lead to someone being gay? Banging women but having trouble keeping them? Just like every other character in comics not married... waiting for Starlord to come out.
Look Sin, I agree with you that it was terribly handled, and you don't agree with the outcome, but some people might think you're deflecting just because you're being a contrarian, and some people might think you defend anything that you view under the guise of being "SJW."
This thread... Wow.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Can someone give me an example of an agenda being pushed on mainstream characters? And explain why they feel it is... genuine answer please
Civil War I, Civil War II, Iceman, Female Thor, Ironheart, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Wonder Woman.
All those comics had writers shoving their own shit in to it and doing it poorly. No nuance. No subtlety. And it's not like "good writing" is some abstract ****ing concept. Even I can understand the difference.
And then there's stuff like the Christopher Priest story.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When they made Superman and Cap punch Hitler. How dare they.
You say that, and I do agree that most Nazis deserve a slap. The "slap a Jap" thing, though? Horribly racist.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
I think, I see the culture war as affecting comics. Apart from Ditko and Frank Miller, comic writers have generally been quite liberal. Which is weird as the whole might is right idea of Superhero comics is about as fascistic as it gets. I mean in honesty the whole plot of most superhero comics is a bad guy wants to impose his will on people or he is a superterrorsit who just wants to watch the region, world, universe burn. The good guy wants to impose his will on the bad guy with no checks and balances simply because he can, but it's fine because his agenda is protective. Superheros have always been doing shady shit. Now, these liberal writers like to use the medium to get across ideas of tolerance, which mitigate the basic fascism of Superheroes imo. Recently though, a very vocal group who generally don't like liberal ideas but do like comics don't like comics which had always been the domain of "white boys" crossing over to the mainstream and having something in them for girls and the transgendered, even different ethnic groups. So this trope of SJW stories and why is Brie saying feminist things etc. Well, because she is a feminist. I know you well enough to know you are a tolerant guy, and someone I like on here and think is a decent human being, so maybe I am wrong, maybe I'm right who knows.
Are you... suggesting that at their core, people like Superman and Spider-Man are ultimately fascist?
Other than that, you did touch on something that I think truly gets lost in the discussion. There are always going to be people that are scumbags. That hate anyone that isn't like them. But not everyone that doesn't like, say Captain Marvel's push is one of those people. Some people just don't like bad writing, or having character they grew up reading treated like shit. Or writers spouting in interviews about how their own biases are going to heavily impact their work.
You said that most comic writers are liberal, and I think they are, but I think that the kind of liberal, say, Grant Morrison is, is not the same kind of liberal that put out a lot of the comics people are complaining about.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Kyle casually creates an artificial sun. Multiverse's end again confirmed that new 52 Anti Monitor was at full power and Darkseid's attack in Final Crisis actually affected Monitor sphere too.
Plus the Apex Predators were able to slaughter the Zoo crew with their toonforce powers.
Originally posted by abhilegendAlso confirmed again ZH Parallax was trying to create multiverse( I.E, confirmed Hal is multiversal during ZH)
Also Kyle casually creates an artificial sun. Multiverse's end again confirmed that new 52 Anti Monitor was at full power and Darkseid's attack in Final Crisis actually affected Monitor sphere too.