Originally posted by Deadline
When did Shiva own Batman? He has got good showings against her. I dunno man ok I'm open to Cassandra being better than Batman dunno about Grayson though. Still don't think Cassandra is better than Cap or Shiva. Cap is basically Deathstroke.
In the League of Shadows arc. Shiva basically took on the batfamily singlehandedly.
Batman also did well against Slade. Even knocking him out in one encounter.
Originally posted by Senor Cage
Batman isn't at the top anymore, as confirmed by Tom King and Tynion.It's
Shiva (Who owned Batman)
Cassandra
Batman
Jason/Dick
That's a terrible list. Thank God we don't go by writers opinions
Originally posted by Senor Cage
In the League of Shadows arc. Shiva basically took on the batfamily singlehandedly.Batman also did well against Slade. Even knocking him out in one encounter.
Yea and I think that in that encounter DS beatdown Batman a couple of times easily and wasn't concentrating on Batman but on a target. Finally DS got fed up with him but Batman got lucky because DS was not giving him his full attention. Batman will do well against DS but in a straight up fight will lose because DS is just superior to Batman.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
That's a terrible list. Thank God we don't go by writers opinions
Depends.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Cass is fine. Grayson is not
Grayson is like a younger and more naturally talented fighter than Bruce, there is absolute zero reason for him to be inferior of a fighter unless you rate highly Batman-bullsh*t abilities such as slowing down his heart rate to block poison and other crap.
Originally posted by BentleyYour hate of Batman makes you lose any logical sense.
Grayson is like a younger and more naturally talented fighter than Bruce, there is absolute zero reason for him to be inferior of a fighter unless you rate highly Batman-bullsh*t abilities such as slowing down his heart rate to block poison and other crap.
Not only is this wrong [Dick is a better natural acrobat, not fighter, and he doesn't have the obsession to learn as much as Batman - fighting included], but Nightwing would be a better fighter than Bruce was at that age, not at Bruce's current age.
Bruce has been training longer, has been doing it longer, has had a bigger drive to expand his skill, a bigger pool of knowledge, a bigger pool of trainers, a bigger pool of opponents etc.
There's absolutely zero arguments here.
First of all, of course my Batman hate blinds me to all reason, that should be obvious!
Second of all, the fact that Dick managed to catch up with Bruce and perform feats to his level on a fighting perspective despite having less training time, and as you said, being less obsessed than he is on the matter, proves he's much more talented. Thanks for helping me win that point Phil 👆
As far as I know it has never been stated that Bruce is genetically modelled to be the best fighter in the world? That alone would permit other fighters to have more sheer potential than him. Unless I missed some random retcon?
Edit: but I see your point better after the edit, yes, technically Bruce can still have an edge here due to experience and such. It shouldn't be a given though
Originally posted by Bentley👆
First of all, of course my Batman hate blinds me to all reason, that should be obvious!
Originally posted by BentleyDick doesn't have Bruce's feats. He is an acomplished fighter - but Jason is, too. Tim is, too. Damien is, too. That's because all of them started fighting [alongside/being trained by Batman] since they were in their early teens - which is where an argument could be made that they would be more skilled at the same age, but overall, they're not even close.
Second of all, the fact that Dick managed to catch up with Bruce and perform feats to his level on a fighting perspective despite having less training time, and as you said, being less obsessed than he is on the matter, proves he's much more talented. Thanks for helping me win that point Phil 👆
Damien is a better fighter than Dick, at 10 year old. He's probably a better fighter at 5 years old, than Dick was at 10. That's because he started even earlier than the other Robins. Following your logic, is Damien a more natural fighter than Dick? What about Bruce?
You have no argument.
Originally posted by BentleyI never said he has - but you said that Dick is. Which is not true.
As far as I know it has never been stated that Bruce is genetically modelled to be the best fighter in the world? That alone would permit other fighters to have more sheer potential than him. Unless I missed some random retcon?
Originally posted by BentleyIt is provable by feats, by logic, by history -- by virtually everything you want.
Edit: but I see your point better after the edit, yes, technically Bruce can still have an edge here due to experience and such. It shouldn't be a given though
Dick being a more naturally gifted acrobat is already established. Him being a superior fighter can be argued.
It's pretty difficult to outshine Batman in fighting abilities because he has what's probably the highest fighting IQ in all comicdom. He is consistently handling people that are stronger, faster and have better technical abilities due to his capabilities to plan ahead and adapt.
Let's face it, unless he gets speedblitzed or something you guys are never going to give anyone an edge over him ahah
Originally posted by BentleyI don't think it can. Even if you ignore everything else [age, training, feats etc.] and strip it down - Bruce's character is literally about obsessively trying to know and apply everything. He knows the most ridiculous, obscure martial arts stuff, and has thought endlessly about this sort of stuff. There's only a few people that are on that level, either specialists who have dedicated their entire lives to martial arts [Shiva - who Bruce is explicitly equal to], futuristic Martial Artists [Karate Kid, who is higher, but Bruce can hold his own - which is ridiculous] or body-reading-language autist former-killers [Batgirl].
Him being a superior fighter can be argued.
Dick simply isn't that. He's a natural acrobat, who got trained and fought a few years under Bruce, then went on and became his own superhero - but the obsession to become the best and prepared for everything was never there for him, and even less so after leaving Bruce.