Originally posted by Rockydonovang
people wouldn't slam disney as much if they could make well written films.Irrelevant of intentions, Po saving a fleet from destruction and then getting demoted from saving the fleet from certain doom is god awful writing. To point this out isn't closet sexism, it's being able to pay attention.
It's kind of amusing that George Lucas was able to write better then Disney.
Originally posted by cdtm
It's kind of amusing that George Lucas was able to write better then Disney.
TFA's premise literally makes no sense in relation to what happened in ROTJ and requires the viewer to fill in the gap. It has the characters from the ot completely opposite of where they had been in the ot and it never shows how or why they reverted.
Why did Han go from letting himself get vested in other people to disattaching himself from those same people?
"who cares? it's the solo from anh! hurr durr nolstalgia points!"
Why did no one pull up when the empire destroyed a solar system despite their being huge backlash when the empire destroyed a planet?
"who cares? the republic's a rebellion again!" hurr durr nolstagalia!"
Why the **** did the rebel aliance send a bigger fleet to fight the fo than the republic which, per what ha sbeen established in rotj. is the dominant force of the galaxy?
"who cares? look at how bad these odds are! hurr durr nolstalgia!"
PT isn't a masterpiece, but it's writing is miles above what ever the **** abrams and johnson were doing.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
More like people compare Rey to Anakin and Luke.Anakin is the Chosen One, the point is that he's born with a greater potential than anyone else. Yet he trains for a decade, and even then he gets his ass handed to him in Attack of the Clones. It takes him till the third movie in his trilogy to actually defeat one of the main villains in a duel (ie. Dooku). His power feels earned. Plus he actually has a character. His fear of losing his loved ones plagues him throughout his entire trilogy and culminates in his fall to the Dark Side. He starts off idolizing the Jedi, then struggles with the reality of what they are and becomes cynical about them, then somewhat matures and readjusts to admiration, then has his faith in them completely destroyed.
Luke has a crazy wild potential too, yet the farthest he gets in the first movie of his trilogy is deflecting shit from the training droid, and making that shot that takes down the death star. In the second movie of his trilogy he has to undergo some serious training on Dagobah, is shown struggling, and at the end of his second movie he gets thrashed by Vader. Then in the third movie he finally earns his victory over Vader. He also has his own character arc, he starts off in the first movie as a farmboy craving adventure n shit, and he has the feel throughout the movie as if he's someone whose taken their first steps into a larger world, and at the end of it learns to trust the Force in kinda a pivotal moment where he has something more tempting to rely on. In the second movie of his trilogy he deals with a lot of shit, training with Yoda, failing in a lot of instances to accept his wisdom, has not just naivete but immaturity to deal with, and at the end of the movie he gets ****ed up by the realization that Darth Vader is his father. Then we get to the third movie in his trilogy and he's a lot more seasoned and wise, self-controlled, and he has to deal with facing Vader and trying to redeem him and pushing back against his own temptations towards the dark side.
With Rey, she starts off, knows immediately how to fix the Millennium Falcon when Han Solo didn't. Without any training she rebukes Kylo and peers into his mind, almost instantly figures out how to mind **** people, then at the end of her very first movie humiliates the main antagonist in a fight. Then in the second movie she does some training, and is suddenly portrayed as Kylo's rough equal... the grandson of Darth Vader who trained under Luke for far longer and then Snoke... in the second movie. Her power just doesn't feel remotely as earned as the other two protagonists.
And then there's her character. She vaguely deals with her parents and her abandonment issues for two movies and it doesn't really lead anywhere (contrast that with Anakin leaving his mom in episode 1, then his dreams about her and her dying in episode 2, or to Luke's familial shit with Darth Vader). She, unlike Luke is stepping into a larger world but doesn't really seem phased in the same way. She like Luke, has her trust in the Force moment at the end of her first movie, only it's while she's dueling someone with a lightsaber where the Force is the obvious and only answer, whereas Luke was seriously tempted to rely on the targeting computer. She trains with Luke, learns some things, but is more put in her place by him on her understanding of what the force is or how to use it, not so much on her character in which she is portrayed as right. And then she has her Luke-Vader moment where she tries to redeem Kylo, which isn't as investing as Luke's relationship with his own father.
Literally every part of her character arc worth mentioning is a pale copy of Luke's character arc without as many emotional stakes or character growth that isn't executed as well. Her relationship with Kylo is the most interesting thing about her in that regard, and that's partly due to the fact that for all the shit he gets Kylo Ren is a genuinely interesting character with more of a character arc and more character than Rey has.
The issue with not with a strong whamen, it's with the writing and execution of Rey as a character and the fact that her power doesn't feel earned and her character doesn't have any serious stakes. There are plenty of strong female Star Wars characters that are actually fan favorites, ie. Leia, Ahsoka, or if we want to get into the EU people like Mara Jade, Satele Shan was appreciated as all **** when the SWTOR trailers came out but the hype for her kinda died out when the game itself made her virtually irrelevant.
Originally posted by Surtur
Wonder Woman wasn't called a mary sue. Nor were the strong independent black women from Black Panther.
And the Dora Milaje weren't called Mary Sues because they were side-characters. Had you made Okoye the main character of her own film, there'd be people raging across the globe about it.
Originally posted by MythLordpretty much. 👆
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.And the Dora Milaje weren't called Mary Sues because they were side-characters. Had you made Okoye the main character of her own film, there'd be people raging across the globe about it.
Originally posted by MythLord
Was my post specifically about Rey, tho? Not that I don't disagree with some of what you said(I do), but I don't really see the neccessity for this wall'o'text about Rey/Luke/Anakin to my general comment about the double standard in fiction.
Is there? I rarely see the term used of discussion of the new SW films, and then it's nearly as often applied to male characters as it is female.
Originally posted by MythLord
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.And the Dora Milaje weren't called Mary Sues because they were side-characters. Had you made Okoye the main character of her own film, there'd be people raging across the globe about it.
I've never seen anyone call WW a Mary Sue TBH.
And there is a rather large difference between the two. WW is a film meant to stand on it's own whereas TFA was merely the first part of a trilogy, WW starts as a fully trained warrior whereas Rey starts off as a nobody, and WW makes mistakes throughout her film.
Originally posted by MythLord
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.
Well you'd have more of a point about her starting off as crazy OP, except there's a contrast between the two universes. One as you said has shit established by the comics, and it's a superhero universe which has "power fantasy" embedded in it. The logic that someone like she or Superman starts off OP as shit is consistent with the worldbuilding.
As for Rey, in a universe in which a lot of this power is based on mastery, as a discipline you have to learn inside and out rather than some innate primal physical ability, where not only the fricken Chosen One had to train to learn how to use his power in any serious capacity but also his son, and his grandson who is set up as Rey's equal... it just feels cheap and unearned in that context.
On paper at first glance there's not as much difference between the two, but when you contextualize them in their respective universes... YEAH THERE IS.
Also as far as the characterization goes, Rey steps into a larger world and is relatively unphased for the most part aside from being somewhat naive. Diana steps into a larger unfamiliar world and... it's very clear she doesn't really know what the **** she's doing. She has this character arc of viewing all of humanity's evil as the exponent of some external force, realizing the grim truth that there is inherent evil in humanity, and having to work through that to realize they are worth saving anyways. Definitely more of a character arc than Rey had.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
[
Also as far as the characterization goes, Rey steps into a larger world and is relatively unphased for the most part aside from being somewhat naive. [/B]
Why the **** does Rey's delusion regarding her parents' potential return not even get a passing mention when you spend paragraphs on ****ing power levels and aptitude? It's well established visually and through action that Rey is clinging to the memory of her parents.
It's perfectly fine to argue the resolution or about the other aspects of her characterization, but not mentioning what is easily the most important part of her characterization is missing the forest for the trees.
One as you said has shit established by the comics, and it's a superhero universe which has "power fantasy" embedded in it.
Off course wonder woman isn't a good movie...
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-_-Why the **** does Rey's delusion regarding her parents' potential return not even get a passing mention when you spend paragraphs on ****ing power levels and aptitude? It's well established visually and through action that Rey is clinging to the memory of her parents.
It's perfectly fine to argue the resolution or about the other aspects of her characterization, but not mentioning what is easily the most important part of her characterization is missing the forest for the trees.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Wtf? No, that doesn't matter. A story has to establish and set up the shit it wants to use.Off course wonder woman isn't a good movie...
For Star Wars though in which the importance of training is established and where we see what it takes to develop these kinds of abilities throughout both other trilogies, it actually cuts against the grain of the media it falls within in a very unsatisfying way.
I'm not gonna argue with you about whether or not Wonder Woman was a good movie because that wasn't really my point.
Originally posted by EmperordmbBut Rey is a prodigy.
I mentioned it in my previous post. That it was a storyline for her character that ultimately kinda lead nowhere. A layer to her character but not one dealt with in a remotely satisfying or emotionally investing way. If that's the most important part of her characterization then that just kinda further proves my point.Well it matters to some extent. People are familiar enough with the superhero genre and the premise of characters like Wonder Woman and Superman and Thor etc. that them starting off OP in the context of that premise isn't a particularly offputting thing. That's part of their genre and everyone knows it.
For Star Wars though in which the importance of training is established and where we see what it takes to develop these kinds of abilities throughout both other trilogies, it actually cuts against the grain of the media it falls within in a very unsatisfying way.
I'm not gonna argue with you about whether or not Wonder Woman was a good movie because that wasn't really my point.
People forget that TFA pretty much set Rey up as a survivor and mechanic. Someone who had to fight, scavange, repair and possibly even kill her way since she was five in the Jakku dessert.
That key element to her character they forget, but they foam at the mouth at a small detail like her saying "I don't need help!" at a man who tried to grab her hand...
This isn't addressed to you specifically DMB, I'll get to your post later
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well it matters to some extent. People are familiar enough with the superhero genre and the premise of characters like Wonder Woman and Superman and Thor etc. that them starting off OP in the context of that premise isn't a particularly offputting thing. That's part of their genre and everyone knows it.[/B]
That it was a storyline for her character that ultimately kinda lead nowhere.
TFA is a badly written story overalla nd you can argue rey's character isn't well execution, but the elements of an arc are certainly present
Originally posted by Silent Master
Wonder Woman did set-up everything in regards to both her skill and power, did people even watch the movie?
The reasons WW isn't a good film though come down to execution and hwo they completley threw away what they set up with a nonsensical resolution.
The first act is a slog of terrible line delivery and slow uncreative exposition regarding just about everything.
The second act builds up something interesting regarding Dianai's conception of evil but also crowds itself with a bunch of side characters who the film doesn't really do anythign with. The final act provides a compelling resolution to the aforementioned arc before completely wasting it with WW needing to beat one bad guy.