Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader

Originally posted by Red Heathen

Re: Vader vs Sidious

1) The Script vs George Lucas

LAME Totally lame. We're discussing Legends, and in Legends, FF or anything else that wasn't g canon < g canon. Even Lucas' statements could not contradict the movies. Here is the script:

This is just blatant dishonesty. You were willing to accept The Wrath of Darth Maul's account of Maul leading Qui Gon along despite it not being mentioned anywhere in the original script or novelization for TPM which according to this logic would mean it was overruled. You only decide to acknowledge things like this when it suits your argument. Regardless we don't just dismiss Lucas later making notes on the source material nor Fact Files elaborating on the context simply because he did not mention it anywhere in the orignal script. In order for something to be overruled and rendered N-Canon there would have to be a direct contradiction which in this case there isn't. And you've lectured me on the G-Canon rules before and now completely ignored them here. Ironic.

There is *nothing* that implies a "Light Side PIS Nexus".

Which is totally irrelevant. In order for Lucas's statement to be rendered N-Canon there would have to a direct contradicted ie: the script saying Vader wasn't amped but unfortunately for you the Script makes no mention of whether Vader was amped or not.

Excerpts from the book agree with the script.

Which is irrelevant given the script doesn't actually contradict Lucas's statements or the Fact File.

2) Vader Weakened

If anything, this is an extraordinary feat for Vader considering how horrendously weak he was. He couldn't even use one arm that well because, well, he just had it lopped off. He most likely had a concussion, if not, then he at least had the headache of a lifetime.

Yeah Vader was weakened physically sure but that's completely irrelevant to his inner Force Strength.

OK fine let's say he had a light side nexus amp.

Good because he did.

"Weaker than he'd ever been..."

Which says nothing about Vader's Force strength at all. The quote very clearly is referring to his weakened physical strength.

Vader had never been so weak. He had one arm. He was in pain. He moved only by sheer will of mind. His heart was being electrocuted the entire time by the Emperor's strongest lightning. The Emperor had just ramped up its strength to kill Luke:

You're baselessly assuming The Emperor's Lightning was actually at its full potency which it wasn't. The Emperor's Lightning increasing in intensity while electrocuting Luke doesn't mean it was actually at full strength. That's nonsense.

What amp exactly did Vader have? It was a weak ass amp if it was there. It didn't do Vader any favors.

I'm amused that you think that fufilling the prophecy of the Chosen One while amped by "light side super energy" is a weak ass amp. This "weak ass amp" is the only reason Vader accomplished the feat per numerous sources with the official fact file 111 noting "It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star."

The specific source of Vader's newfound stength was his love for his son per the fact file.

Not to mention Vader's canonical equal (Luke) was disabled by a mere fraction of The Emperor's power so any argument that Vader tanking The Emperor's power is somehow where he operates normally is blatantly false.

So what. Light Side. Dark Side. Either way, Vader tanked Sidious' strongest lightning for more than twenty seconds and tossed Sidious to his death.

Yeah after charging his power up for minutes and possessing "super energy".

If you can prove to me that Dooku's lightning > Sidious' lightning, then I'll concede, but you'll need to do this while taking into account *all* of Sidious' lightning showings in Legends as well as canon.

I don't need to prove Dooku's Lightning>Sidious's Lightning given Vader can be taken out by a mere fraction of Sidious's power.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi

3) Vader Lowballing

Well considering he did that to the most powerful force user ever, I'd say it is an impressive feat, and disregarding it is just blatant lowballing of Vader.

Yeah I'm sure ignoring an unquantifiable feat is blatant lowballing. Whatever floats your boat.

Dooku would get fried by Sidious's lightning just as badly as Mace did in ROTS.

No shit.

Vader beats Dooku, it's that simple. If he isn't beating him in a duel, then he is using TK. Vader's skill with djem and juyo is also enough to tire Dooku out.

Still haven't seen an argument against Dooku>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Kenobi=Vader.

It's a great fight though

It's a decent fight at best and Dooku takes it.

(Continued Below)

Originally posted by HP Legend
Lmao. Rebuttal will be up in a few hours time more than likely. For gosh sake though as bdsmbdsm said I didn't ask for a wall of text that doesn't actually prove anything. I have CaV posts to write.

"wall of text"...

The vast majority of his posts are quotes. The actual quantity of his arguments isn't much.

Will address the rest later. Don't have the energy for this.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Will address the rest later. Don't have the energy for this.

I can handle him. :3

No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because he's better? I've asked multiple times for a feat for Vader on Dooku's level and what I get in return is a showing that is completely unquantifiable and supposed "debunks" that don't exist. Please enlighten me as to why he'd win. I prefer Vader as a character but these arguments are truly laughable and haven't convinced me of a single thing.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because he's better? I've asked multiple times for a feat for Vader on Dooku's level and what I get in return is a showing that is completely unquantifiable and supposed "debunks" that don't exist. Please enlighten me as to why he'd win. I prefer Vader as a character but these arguments are truly laughable and haven't convinced me of a single thing.

How about when Vader crushed the AT-AT that was being driven by Han Solo? :3

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Because people on this forum are brain-dead idiots.

Peak-Vader (whichever form that is) is indisputably more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because he's better? I've asked multiple times for a feat for Vader on Dooku's level and what I get in return is a showing that is completely unquantifiable and supposed "debunks" that don't exist. Please enlighten me as to why he'd win. I prefer Vader as a character but these arguments are truly laughable and haven't convinced me of a single thing.

Ok lets look at Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi. Dooku only ragdolled him when he was completely caught of guard in the movie. The novel actually goes indepth on Kenobi vs Dooku, as the movie didn't really show this because Kenobi was taken out so quickly. Dooku could barely keep up with Kenobi. Kenobi was absolutley hammering him until Dooku resorted to using force attacks to try and take him out. Not to mention Dooku couldn't even penetrate Kenobi's defence.
So in short Kenobi>Dooku as duelists. As for Ben Kenobi vs Vader. Ben Kenobi likely grew stronger in the force, which was why Vader couldn't ragdoll him. The New Hope novel also confirms Vader was winning the duel. Vader has far better TK feats, its not even funny. For goodness sake he can contend with a character who can use the force to take down Star Destroyers.

Well, Vader is winning now. 0-0

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi

Jesus Christ lmao.

Ok lets look at Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi.

Yeah let's look at the comparison which favours Dooku and stretch truth to the breaking point to make Kenobi look better.

Dooku only ragdolled him when he was completely caught of guard in the movie.

False. There is absolutely no evidence Kenobi was caught off guard when Dooku one shotted him with a Force Push. And even if Kenobi was caught off guard in this instance it proves Dooku is faster given he can hit Kenobi before the latter can react while he's staring the former directly in the face.

The novel actually goes indepth on Kenobi vs Dooku, as the movie didn't really show this because Kenobi was taken out so quickly.

Yeah the novel doesn't go in depth at all. It has Kenobi and Dooku fighting for basically a single paragraph.

Dooku could barely keep up with Kenobi. Kenobi was absolutley hammering him until Dooku resorted to using force attacks to try and take him out. Not to mention Dooku couldn't even penetrate Kenobi's defence.

False on all 3 accounts. Dooku could keep up with Kenobi lol and taking a single paragraph and omitting all context to it doesn't prove the opposite.

First off Kenobi was not hammering Dooku that can be primarily be attributed to Anakin who caught Dooku off guard. All Kenobi did was block Dooku's strikes.

And second off we get to the part where all context is being omitted. When Dooku couldn't breach Kenobi's defence he was already tired from deliberately toying with the duo as he believed them to be sloppy and inefficient as they duped him by using forms they were infamilair with and deliberately dumbed down their abilities. So we already have the fact that Dooku was tired. Now let's see what else was omitted.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

-Revenge of the Sith

If you could read you'd see Dooku was only stonewalled by Kenobi because he was operating under the pretense the latter was using Ataru as opposed to Soresu.

So in other words your entire argument is based on a single contextual paragraph where Dooku couldn't break Kenobi's defence due to circumstance with Kenobi actually being knocked out a second later by Dooku hitting him with a Force Push.

Don't you think that if Kenobi could beat Dooku solo the duo wouldn't have employed an elaborate strategy to get Dooku tired before surprising him? Of course they wouldn't have. The Kenobi>Dooku in sabers argument is one of the most retarded things I've heard.

Ben Kenobi likely grew stronger in the force, which was why Vader couldn't ragdoll him.

Not a single source reaffirms what you're saying. I'd say Kenobi being described as a "shadow of his former self" indicates he wasn't nearly as strong as he was in ROTS.

he New Hope novel also confirms Vader was winning the duel.

Quote? As far as I'm concerned no source supports Vader>Kenobi. Vader couldn't break Kenobi's guard per Fightsaber and Vader concedes afterwards Kenobi was his equal iirc.

Vader has far better TK feats, its not even funny. For goodness sake he can contend with a character who can use the force to take down Star Destroyers.

You are aware Galen stomped him in their first encounter and beat him while exhausted in their second.

Well, Galen could stomp Dooku pretty damn badly. X3

If that is the case of course, I’ll get to you in a moment. 😛

Vader reaches, Dooku teaches.

2. Yeah, but their ain't evidence of him getting knocked off guard either so... 🙂 it is pretty damn obvious that Kenobi gets tossed around a lot,thank you Ventress.

"Not a single source reaffirms what you're saying. I'd say Kenobi being described as a "shadow of his former self" indicates he wasn't nearly as strong as he was in ROTS."
This is back to the "he was either fleeing from vader or Vader and troops" situation again. We covered this earlier, neither of us know the exact thought process of his.

"You are aware Galen stomped him in their first encounter and beat him while exhausted in their second."
I find Marek kind of a strange person to compare others to, he has some pretty damn stupid feats. By that, I mean somehow ws capable of bringing down a Star Destroyer in his early days of training, defeated Vader, and 'defeated" Sidious. There is also a theory stating that Vader was going easy on him, as he had another emotional battle with him, like when he battled Luke in the Death Star.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Vader reaches, Dooku teaches.

replied too early. deleted comment.

This forum is horrible me to type in. Would you mind if I copied and pasted our replies to a new thread in CV?

Originally posted by Red Heathen
This forum is horrible me to type in. Would you mind if I copied and pasted our replies to a new thread in CV?

Originally posted by Red Heathen
This forum is horrible me to type in. Would you mind if I copied and pasted our replies to a new thread in CV?

Yeah KMC takes time to get used to.

PM me on CV and we can discuss it.