Michael Korvac vs. Monarch

Originally posted by Bentley
https://imgur.com/a/N0b0ZcD

"Michael is not omnipotent, his defeats have weakened him"

Then she goes to talk about Red Skull.

But maybe you want to take that statement as an implication that Korvac Saga Michael is stronger than Korvac Quest Michael? mmm

Originally posted by Bentley
You mean because of that time an amped alternate Dormammu caught him unaware in the Dark Dimension? I could see many legit skyfathers being defeated under similar conditions.

But hey, Krugarr to skyfather level since he defeated Korvac, eh?

Originally posted by abhilegend
The scene straight up says that Red Skull used anti matter to destroy him even before he was weakened.

He did shield against a Cosmic Cube level being before going down. Red Skull overpowered him before he used antimatter to dispel his physical body.

The narration implies that maybe he lost a part of his power by the time of that confrontation, but I believe Red Skull would've punked Korvac regardless, so the point is moot.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually he was overpowered by random minions.

I can see current Odin going down like that biscuits

Originally posted by abhilegend
But hey, Krugarr to skyfather level since he defeated Korvac, eh?

I haven't claimed he is skyfather level and certainly not because of that.

Krugarr is a wizard and he got physically tangled by minions he thought inactive which is something PIS/CIS can justify. He then faced Dormammu face to face. There are characters that can be handled physically and are powerful such as mages and telepaths.

Going by feats, Krugarr sits comfortably above Herald level.

He also happened to use a convenient BFR spell that neutered Korvac. There are plenty of examples of less powerful characters displacing much powerful opponents, recently the Gamemaster got sent into a place where he couldn't regenerate by Shatterstar and in your favorite Fantastic Four comic
Franklin Richards teleported the Mad Celestials against their will despite being more powerful.

Originally posted by Bentley
He did shield against a Cosmic Cube level being before going down. Red Skull overpowered him before he used antimatter to dispel his physical body.

The narration implies that maybe he lost a part of his power by the time of that confrontation, but I believe Red Skull would've punked Korvac regardless, so the point is moot.

No, it implied that the defeat at the hands of Skull weakened him. Same red skull was also killed by anti matter bath too.

I can see current Odin going down like that biscuits

Naturally.

I haven't claimed he is skyfather level and certainly not because of that.

Krugarr is a wizard and he got physically tangled by minions he thought inactive which is something PIS/CIS can justify. He then faced Dormammu face to face. There are characters that can be handled physically and are powerful such as mages and telepaths.

Going by feats, Krugarr sits comfortably above Herald level.

By what feats?

He also happened to use a convenient BFR spell that neutered Korvac. There are plenty of examples of less powerful characters displacing much powerful opponents, recently the Gamemaster got sent into a place where he couldn't regenerate by Shatterstar and in your favorite Fantastic Four comic
Franklin Richards teleported the Mad Celestials against their will despite being more powerful.

This wasn't shown against Krugarr though. Ancient One also knew the spell but it was power of Krugarr which defeated Korvac and Korvac was never shown more powerful than him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it implied that the defeat at the hands of Skull weakened him. Same red skull was also killed by anti matter bath too.

Marvel Anti-matter > DC Antimatter, ask Thanos 😛

Red Skull still had to overpower Korvac's shields before dispelling his body though. He was already more powerful than Korvac was since he wanted to get his hands on the Cosmic Cube from the get to go.

Even if you could use anti-matter on him and we admit that's enough, you'd need to overpower his defenses. Korvac was already weakened in his body when Hazmat applied her attack.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By what feats?

After he got released from his captivity he went to fight Dormammu who had previously redirected the energies of Doctor Strange, Phoenix, Firelord, Spirit of Vengeance, Holywood and Aletta. Considering how Giraud is constantly shown as being above Starhawk and Firelord he is packing a lot of power.

He held his own solo vs that Dormammu and beat him handily after he amped himself with Doctor Strange's departed soul and Talon (who is quite a nobody).

Originally posted by abhilegend
This wasn't shown against Krugarr though. Ancient One also knew the spell but it was power of Krugarr which defeated Korvac and Korvac was never shown more powerful than him.

I'm pointing out being able to BFR an opponent into a more convenient position doesn't mean you are downright able to overpower him not that power is not needed at all to perform the feat.

Given how magics work the Ancient One might not be powerful enough to make the spell work on someone like Korvac. Yet he can easily handle skyfather level energies as shown vs Dormammu despite his old age.

Originally posted by Bentley
Marvel Anti-matter > DC Antimatter, ask Thanos 😛

Yep, COIE happened in marvel.

Red Skull still had to overpower Korvac's shields before dispelling his body though. He was already more powerful than Korvac was since he wanted to get his hands on the Cosmic Cube from the get to go.

And?

Even if you could use anti-matter on him and we admit that's enough, you'd need to overpower his defenses. Korvac was already weakened in his body when Hazmat applied her attack.

Monarch can easily overpower his defenses.

After he got released from his captivity he went to fight Dormammu who had previously redirected the energies of Doctor Strange, Phoenix, Firelord, Spirit of Vengeance, Holywood and Aletta. Considering how Giraud is constantly shown as being above Starhawk and Firelord he is packing a lot of power.

He was amped there.

He held his own solo vs that Dormammu and beat him handily after he amped himself with Doctor Strange's departed soul and Talon (who is quite a nobody).

Yeah, Talon only restrained Galactus with crimson bands of Cyttorak. Nobody really.

I'm pointing out being able to BFR an opponent into a more convenient position doesn't mean you are downright able to overpower him not that power is not needed at all to perform the feat.

Right. And this proves what?

Given how magics work the Ancient One might not be powerful enough to make the spell work on someone like Korvac. Yet he can easily handle skyfather level energies as shown vs Dormammu despite his old age.

Even base Captain Atom has drained Nekron when he was killing entire universe. Am I supposed to be impressed with that?

Originally posted by Bentley
Marvel

After he got released from his captivity he went to fight Dormammu who had previously redirected the energies of Doctor Strange, Phoenix, Firelord, Spirit of Vengeance, Holywood and Aletta. Considering how Giraud is constantly shown as being above Starhawk and Firelord he is packing a lot of power.

He held his own solo vs that Dormammu and beat him handily after he amped himself with Doctor Strange's departed soul and Talon (who is quite a nobody).

How weakened? He was sh|tting his pants at the thought of fighting some Mindless Ones :

Originally posted by zopzop
Sorry, I just wanted to point out that Dormammu was severely weakened by the time Krueggar took him out :

How weakened? He was sh|tting his pants at the thought of fighting some Mindless Ones :

He was fearing the Mindless Ones after fighting Krugarr. Technically the only thing that happened between redirecting skyfather level energies and him fighting Krugarr was Charly-27 and Yellowjacket buying time vs him. So unless the argument is that class 5 punches and stingers weakened much below Skyfather it's still a decent showing by Krugarr.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Monarch can easily overpower his defenses.

I'm just dispelling the notion having Anti-matter is an autowin for Korvac.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was amped there.

An amp that still weights his Powers vs that of several heralds if we compare what Strange needed to stand his ground vs Dormammu. He did start fighting Dormy unamped too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, Talon only restrained Galactus with crimson bands of Cyttorak. Nobody really.

And Thing toppled Galactus. If Talon is so good in which tier would you place him? Who would be the strongest DC character he can defeat?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Right. And this proves what?

That is within reason to believe Korvac is above Krugarr for some margin. His other showings imply as much.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Even base Captain Atom has drained Nekron when he was killing entire universe. Am I supposed to be impressed with that?

I'm just dispelling the notion that the Ancient One Strange is so much of a feeb that his magic power is not worthy of note. By Korvac's admission Krugarr is his superior but technically neither of them are in this fight.

How would you react if I tried to reduce Nekron to that single showing vs Captain Atom? That's pretty much what I'm doing here. You have already used about 10 different arguments to try to scale down Korvac but I'm showing they aren't definite proof case by case.

Originally posted by Bentley
I'm just dispelling the notion having Anti-matter is an autowin for Korvac.

It is at such levels.

An amp that still weights his Powers vs that of several heralds if we compare what Strange needed to stand his ground vs Dormammu. He did start fighting Dormy unamped too.

Uh-huh. Dormammu was weakened fighting those characters, he didn't weaken AFTER fighting those characters.

And Thing toppled Galactus. If Talon is so good in which tier would you place him? Who would be the strongest DC character he can defeat?

The power he lent to Krugarr can't be ignored just because your boy Korvac lost to him straight up, without any amps.

That is within reason to believe Korvac is above Krugarr for some margin. His other showings imply as much.

If only Krugarr hadn't made him his *****.

I'm just dispelling the notion that the Ancient One Strange is so much of a feeb that his magic power is not worthy of note. By Korvac's admission Krugarr is his superior but technically neither of them are in this fight.

Uh-huh.

How would you react if I tried to reduce Nekron to that single showing vs Captain Atom? That's pretty much what I'm doing here. You have already used about 10 different arguments to try to scale down Korvac but I'm showing they aren't definite proof case by case.

Even there Nekron was a death abstract, Korvac isn't.

Korvac isn't a match for Monarch, hell Galactus isn't. The sooner you accept it, the better.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh-huh. Dormammu was weakened fighting those characters, he didn't weaken AFTER fighting those characters.

He was clearly weakened, but he still went from redirecting skyfather level energies to fighting Krugarr with almost no time in between most of the "weakening" happened before that point. Krugarr was also fighting him solo before getting amped.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The power he lent to Krugarr can't be ignored just because your boy Korvac lost to him straight up, without any amps.

Again, how much power did Talon had to spare? Phoenix level energies? herald level?

Dormammu handled:

Strange + Holywood + Firelord + Spirit of Vengeance + Aletta + Phoenix Giraud

then he got beat by:

Krugarr + Strange + Talon

How many heralds would you say Talon replaces in those equations? Two? Three?

Krugarr used a silver bullet spell most opponents are not able to replicate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If only Krugarr hadn't made him his *****.

Language.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Even there Nekron was a death abstract, Korvac isn't.

And Doctor Doom is actually a drop out and not a doctor. Titles mean nothing. You know reducing Nekron to that showing is something you wouldn't allow.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Korvac isn't a match for Monarch, hell Galactus isn't. The sooner you accept it, the better.

I haven't given my opinion on how this battle goes since I haven't read Monarch's arc in a while. You should bump a Galactus vs Monarch thread if you want someone to argue that with.

Originally posted by Bentley
He was clearly weakened, but he still went from redirecting skyfather level energies to fighting Krugarr with almost no time in between most of the "weakening" happened before that point. Krugarr was also fighting him solo before getting amped.

So? It only means that Dormammu was weakened by channeling that much power.

Again, how much power did Talon had to spare? Phoenix level energies? herald level?

"Not nothing" level.

Dormammu handled:

Strange + Holywood + Firelord + Spirit of Vengeance + Aletta + Phoenix Giraud

then he got beat by:

Krugarr + Strange + Talon

How many heralds would you say Talon replaces in those equations? Two? Three?

Not quantifiable because Dormammu was weakened in between.

Krugarr used a silver bullet spell most opponents are not able to replicate.

Yeah, BFR is so uncommon.

Language.

Sorry mom.

And Doctor Doom is actually a drop out and not a doctor. Titles mean nothing. You know reducing Nekron to that showing is something you wouldn't allow.

Actually its one of his best showings where he was killing the entire universe after controlling quantum field. Why wouldn't I use it?

I haven't given my opinion on how this battle goes since I haven't read Monarch's arc in a while. You should bump a Galactus vs Monarch thread if you want someone to argue that with.

Yeah, right. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

Monarch beats Korvac, deal with it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So? It only means that Dormammu was weakened by channeling that much power.

He said he was weakened by battling so many different opponents, so it's only accounted for a part of it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
"Not nothing" level.

Not quantifiable because Dormammu was weakened in between.

I rather call it "Krugarr functioning well above herald level".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, BFR is so uncommon.

Again. Towards an specific realm where not even Korvac's extensive Powers work.

We've gone over this for a number of times in this very debate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Sorry mom.

It's ok, we can all have a bad day.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Actually its one of his best showings where he was killing the entire universe after controlling quantum field. Why wouldn't I use it?

So Nekron's best is getting handled by a high herald? Ok I guess.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, right. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

Monarch beats Korvac, deal with it.

If I think you are misrepresenting a character I'm allowed to express my disagreement on how you interpret the scans.

Also maybe I'll feel like readng more on Monarch later and give out an opinion on the topic, unlike other posters here I have intellectual honesty to spare.

Originally posted by Bentley
He was fearing the Mindless Ones after fighting Krugarr.

Technically the only thing that happened between redirecting skyfather level energies and him fighting Krugarr was Charly-27 and Yellowjacket buying time vs him. So unless the argument is that class 5 punches and stingers weakened much below Skyfather it's still a decent showing by Krugarr.

Originally posted by Bentley
He said he was weakened by battling so many different opponents, so it's only accounted for a part of it.

No, it was the only reason he was weakened.

I rather call it "Krugarr functioning well above herald level".

Well, you're, well you.

Again. Towards an specific realm where not even Korvac's extensive Powers work.

It's just the lack of physical realm. Nothing extra special.

We've gone over this for a number of times in this very debate.

Uh-huh.

It's ok, we can all have a bad day.

Uh-huh.

So Nekron's best is getting handled by a high herald? Ok I guess.

If only either Korvac or Galactus were ever shown to be universal killers, eh?

If I think you are misrepresenting a character I'm allowed to express my disagreement on how you interpret the scans.

Well you're certainly allowed to be wrong.

Also maybe I'll feel like readng more on Monarch later and give out an opinion on the topic, unlike other posters here I have intellectual honesty to spare.

Are you going to check if they are stuttering to see if they are lying?

Monarch.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it was the only reason he was weakened.

According to you. It's not what Dormmamu said in panel.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's just the lack of physical realm. Nothing extra special.

According to you. It's not what Strange describes in panel.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If only either Korvac or Galactus were ever shown to be universal killers, eh?

I mean, as long as you are arguing that Nekron was silverbulleted by a much weaker carácter you are pretty much in the same tune I'm here. So it's nice and dandy for me.

Galactus has been an univesal killer on attention and like Nekron (apparently) he's a well know jobber awesr

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well you're certainly allowed to be wrong.

By not delving into a single showing to scale down a character?

Your debating method is just prone to misrepresentations, I'm considering what other showings imply about Korvac, you focus on characters that aren't here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Are you going to check if they are stuttering to see if they are lying?

I don't like when people pretend they don't see when writers insist in a plot elements. Writting is about implying and insisting, comicbooks are not computer manuals.

Korvac

Originally posted by Bentley
According to you. It's not what Dormmamu said in panel.

According to you. It's not what Strange describes in panel.

I mean, as long as you are arguing that Nekron was silverbulleted by a much weaker carácter you are pretty much in the same tune I'm here. So it's nice and dandy for me.

Galactus has been an univesal killer on attention and like Nekron (apparently) he's a well know jobber awesr

By not delving into a single showing to scale down a character?

Your debating method is just prone to misrepresentations, I'm considering what other showings imply about Korvac, you focus on characters that aren't here.

I don't like when people pretend they don't see when writers insist in a plot elements. Writting is about implying and insisting, comicbooks are not computer manuals.

Yes, it was said to be a realm with no physical space, nothing special.

I'd like to see where Galactus was killing an entire universe on his own. Or Korvac. Nekron losing to Captain Atom channeling all of quantum realm is not jobbing.

Yeah, you're wrong. Deal with it.

Ah right, only you are able to find such clues. How convenient.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's exactly what was said, he was already weakened when facing Krugarr.

Later Dormmamu thinks "This long battle with so many varied opponents has weakened me far more than I realized!". He is not tired just because of his scuffle with Strange (and that fight wasn't even very long). Sure it all adds up, but just a moment before he was confident he would overpower Strange and did so, little happened in between.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it was said to be a realm with no physical space, nothing special.

Well, that's something you say as if it was self evident somehow. We can see Korvac's body on panel but it's in a place with no physical space. If that's a junior version of Un-space...

Your interpretation IS plausible with the context we are given. I'm not entirely sure whether a place has "no physical space" or not without an explicit statement.

But sure, why not 👆

As long as you agree we have no reason to believe Krugarr bind him as a separate action from his BFR I think this instance is covered.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'd like to see where Galactus was killing an entire universe on his own. Or Korvac. Nekron losing to Captain Atom channeling all of quantum realm is not jobbing.

Galactus has never killed an universo on his own. When he got weaponized by Thanos or during the Dreaming Celestial storyline it was shown his Powers are enough to bust the universe and that's about that.

Korvac never reached that kind of potential and I don't think he ever Will.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, you're wrong. Deal with it.

Debate better?

I can be wrong mate I'm just not getting why you hang to these bad arguments.

If you really think Krugarr overpowered Korvac then you have to aknowledge he's beyond herald level. But you just want to have your cake and eat it too, claiming Krugarr must be meh so that confused Korvac maybe killed Hercules with a lucky blast?

I respect you as a debater and I'm having a good time having knowledge checks on these characters. If that's being wrong being right is overrated 👆

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ah right, only you are able to find such clues. How convenient.

Sorry for reading by myself, I guess?

Originally posted by Bentley
Later Dormmamu thinks "This long battle with so many varied opponents has weakened me far more than I realized!". He is not tired just because of his scuffle with Strange (and that fight wasn't even very long). Sure it all adds up, but just a moment before he was confident he would overpower Strange and did so, little happened in between.

Wut? It's straight up said that he is already weakened but you have to insert your views in the comic, eh?

Well, that's something you say as if it was self evident somehow. We can see Korvac's body on panel but it's in a place with no physical space. If that's a junior version of Un-space...

That's what the comic says. It's a realm without physical space, nothing special about it.

Your interpretation IS plausible with the context we are given. I'm not entirely sure whether a place has "no physical space" or not without an explicit statement.

No, it's not. And again, in the same book a Korvac clone lost by simple BFR to another reality.

But sure, why not 👆

As long as you agree we have no reason to believe Krugarr bind him as a separate action from his BFR I think this instance is covered.

Yeah, Krugarr oneshotted Korvac like a *****.

Galactus has never killed an universo on his own. When he got weaponized by Thanos or during the Dreaming Celestial storyline it was shown his Powers are enough to bust the universe and that's about that.

Both times it was by a chain reaction. Not outright power.

Korvac never reached that kind of potential and I don't think he ever Will.

That's what I thought.

Debate better?

I can be wrong mate I'm just not getting why you hang to these bad arguments.

Uh-huh.

If you really think Krugarr overpowered Korvac then you have to aknowledge he's beyond herald level. But you just want to have your cake and eat it too, claiming Krugarr must be meh so that confused Korvac maybe killed Hercules with a lucky blast?

Oh Korvac is above herald level, doesn't mean Krugarr is too.

I respect you as a debater and I'm having a good time having knowledge checks on these characters. If that's being wrong being right is overrated 👆

mmm

Sorry for reading by myself, I guess?

ermm

This is pointless at this point.