Was the research paper hoax wrong?

Started by Putinbot14 pages

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Everyone makes the retarded argument "ermagerd, lobsters diverged from us a long time ago, that makes it retarded" that's the point, the point is to show that it's not a cultural phenomenon, but a biological one so deep that it manifests across species as different as humans and lobsters.

And yes, Jordan Peterson does in the broad span of his work cite to creatures we are more closely related to, such as when referring to experiments on rats, or the social structures of other primates. He does mention them as well. Everyone just likes to hone in on the misconception that he only talks about the lobster.

It's also a complete mischaracterization of him to suggest that he's saying people shouldn't cooperate. Because he does mention closer relatives such as primates, and when discussing their social structures he mentions that things tend to not turn out so well for the alpha chimps that aren't cooperative or reciprocal in their relationship with the other chimps.

He has also stated that a reasonable political left-wing is a necessary part of political discourse, because in his view just as the existence of competence hierarchies is necessary in the pursuit of something of value which the right recognizes, the left is also necessary because people are also displaced and left at the bottom in unfortunate positions, and that it's not a good thing to have people stack up at the bottom in need because then they're suffering as individuals and it destabilizes society as a whole. He has actually praised some of the historic accomplishments of the political left in Canada such as workers protections, the Canadian healthcare system, etc. and think it's a good thing for part of the political system to advocate for the working class.

He also has said for people to adopt responsibility not just for selfish ambition but so they can be of use to the people around them. Something he said was that it's an admirable goal to be the kind of person the rest of your family can rely on at a funeral when a loved one dies. He argues that the point of personal responsibility isn't just so that you can take care of yourself but also your family and the broader community.

You seem to have this misguided understanding of Jordan Peterson's views that essentially amounts to a caricature. He's not some proponent of the idea that cooperation is bad and that it should just be every man for himself, and has said many such things to the contrary.

whilst chimp behaviour is a bit like humans, popularised in the third chimpanzee, we have a lot of differences, the low reliance on the nose and chemical signalling for one. No one ever points that out to the hack.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I do not know enough about evolutionary biology to discuss the merits of Dr. Peterson's Lobster example.

Why is that relevant here however? How is it even remotely comparable in terms of the scale and potential damage that the ideology that is rampant in academia can do to society? One of the academics who was part of the Gender Grievance studies hoax, received a call from a U.N. Ambassador to advice on policy because of one his false papers because it aligned with a leftist narrative.

Really comprehend that for a minute. Take a step back, think about that for 40 seconds. That is utterly insane. Now imagine the sheer NUMBER of students being indoctrinated by these thoughts, and are sent into the world.

Can we stick to the topic at hand? This is the second time you have mentioned the Lobster thing. It has been acknowledged, but we want to discuss the topic at hand.

I think the idea that Dr. Peterson is worth mentioning compared to this is underestimating the scale of the issue. There are people, professional academics, who have no ability to think critically. They have been indoctrinated to a radical degree. Ideas that disagree with them, were forced to be edited by editors before it was published. Conclusions are FORMED. Any pseudo-research is used to fill in the gap. It is the opposite of science, and it is so widespread, it is legit a public crisis imho. We are raising an entire generation of academics incapable of confronting ideas they disagree with or dissecting arguments in a logical manner. I see this every day. Undergraduates who are incapable of holding an open conversation with any degree of aggression or conflict. They immediately fold. Children, in the bodies of young adults.

We will all be speaking Mandarin within 3 generations at this rate in the province of New Beijing. We're raising mentally stunted pussies with a shit work ethic. It's not all bad, but I can notice an OVERALL decrease in quality of freshmen. This is all anecdotal and could be utter bullshit so feel free to ignore. Maybe my experience with this year's undergraduates was just improbably poor. I don't have the data to give factual conclusions.

He relies on peoples lack of understanding and I would suggest through his YouTube he fools and indoctrinates far more people with his credentials.

Oh I see, we might as well dismiss the utility of the field of evolutionary biology and psychological experimentation or drug testing on animals because no other species is 100% identical to humanity and anyone who thinks there's anything that can be learned about our own behavior from such studies are hacks.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Oh I see, we might as well dismiss the utility of the field of evolutionary biology and psychological experimentation or drug testing on animals because no other species is 100% identical to humanity and anyone who thinks there's anything that can be learned about our own behavior from such studies are hacks.
Evolutionary Biology is fine when it's tempered with common sense. He simplifies things to meet his hypothesis. Science doesn't work like that.

Even psychologists find many of his ideas laughable.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hot-thought/201802/jordan-peterson-s-flimsy-philosophy-life

I skimmed it, and he barely says anything related to psychology, it's just him talking about moral and political ideology. The author's credential as a psychologist isn't relevant to anything he's saying.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I skimmed it, and he barely says anything related to psychology, it's just him talking about moral and political ideology. The author's credential as a psychologist isn't relevant to anything he's saying.
well his ideology only gets credence because of his credentials. He's a hack DMB.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
well his ideology only gets credence because of his credentials. He's a hack DMB.

The author you linked to? Yes I agree, you were giving his purely ideological criticism of Peterson credence only because he's a psychologist. Excellent moment of self-reflection. 👆

I don't want to rustle any jimmies but I don't think it's a legitimate criticism to say someone has no business talking about a subject for which he has no credentials. Or she.

People levied this criticism against Dawkins when he got into philosophy in one of his books. Atheist and theist alike. "He's a retired biologist, not a philosopher! He has no business talking about stuff he doesn't know!" That's dumb as hell. Sure, there are deep chasms of intellectual exploration in Philosophy that probably requires quite a bit of study and understanding. But as a philosophy degree holder...holy shit it's not that hard. You can learn all the stuff I did in about 6 months of personal study. And probably end up knowing more.

This type criticism shows favor to brick and mortar university educations. When you can definitely get a better and well-rounded education on a particular topic on your own time. It's not pre-1970s anymore. This type of appeal to authority logical fallacy is not legit.

Either the arguments are terrible or they are not. Do not attack the person because they don't have a nigh-useless degree.

Hell, I have talked to multiple former classmates. Every last one of them forgot almost all details of their degrees. They don't remember jack. Even the professors forget about the content of some of the courses they taught. The topics people talk about are usually best represented at that time of discussion when they take the time to research it. I think the degree helps them to know what avenues to pursue to research. Even then, researching topics has become so easy that you don't really need a degree to get into deep topics.

I notice you do this quite a bit. For example, you dismiss Tim Pool just off the basis he's a youtuber, and then you cite random people's comments about him on reddit as proof that he's an *******. His opinion doesn't mean anything because he's a youtuber, but random people's opinion of him on reddit are substantive.

And then you cite some random Jewish guy saying that Ben Shapiro is alt-right... and you heavily emphasize the guy being Jewish as if that's evidence.

You rely on credentials all the time so long as the person holding them has an ideological view as you and confirms your biases, while claiming to speak out against people who rely solely on credentials. It's a very weird hypocrisy.

That was addressed at Putinbot, not you DDM

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That was addressed at Putinbot, not you DDM

It's a good thing you clarified. I'm one of he biggest emotional SJW types on the board, didn't understand the context, and had memes lined up for pages to yeet you into oblivion.

(JK, I understood the context and knew you were talking to Whirly. TSall good, babuh.)

@DDM I'm going to disagree that you can learn as much on your own, good will hunting and Srinvinista not withstanding, I truly doubt anyone on my course at Kings could have learnt what we were taught alone and it's a mid top 50 in the world University which means to get in it you have to test better than for most other universities in the world.

@ DMB, I get you like him. But he's a hack, I simply do the reverse of what his supporters do, I point to his bad science and cite people equally as qualified.

Of course intelligence is interchangeable to a point, Jared Diamond applied Science to Geography in a relatively new way 30 years ago.

The problem with dumbed down to fit an hypothesis scientists like JP is they cherry pick and ignore the bigger picture. I could give an interesting discourse on environment epigenetic and serotonin release if I wanted but why bother? Its cherry picking a single argument to make DMB rethink his lobster status.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
@DDM I'm going to disagree that you can learn as much on your own, good will hunting and Srinvinista not withstanding, I truly doubt anyone on my course at Kings could have learnt what we were taught alone and it's a mid top 50 in the world University which means to get in it you have to test better than for most other universities in the world.

Depends. If the degree requires you have access to multi-million dollar facilities (some biochemistry majors, medical sciences, etc.), it is impossible to get a comparable or better education. Even then, there are plenty of clever work-arounds and exceptions.

But for almost all degrees, literally almost all, it's not true at all. What we are left with is a set of university elitist-centrism, like yours, which are quickly becoming antiquated in today's world.

For example, let's take business and strategic directions. How do your degrees form 20+ years ago help with data mining and big data analytics? Do you even have a tiny bit of knowledge of hadoop? Splunk? No? Then how can you compete with the heavy hitters who are investing heavily in machine learning and big data analytics? This is what setting strategic directions are about now to run a successful business. That's at the top level and mid level.

Hopefully, you'll retire before this new-wave of information saturation starts to negatively impact you because of your antiquated beliefs about education and knowledge. You don't want to be part of the boomers that are forced to retire early because you've failed to fundamentally adapt to a changing market.

It may seem like I'm being condescending but I'm not. That's just the way it is.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Depends. If the degree requires you have access to multi-million dollar facilities (some biochemistry majors, medical sciences, etc.), it is impossible to get a comparable or better education. Even then, there are plenty of clever work-arounds and exceptions. Molecular Bio is really the highest kind of Biochemistry btw. My specialisation was Enzymeology.

But for almost all degrees, literally almost all, it's not true at all. What we are left with is a set of university elitist-centrism, like yours, which are quickly becoming antiquated in today's world.

For example, let's take business and strategic directions. How do your degrees form 20+ years ago help with data mining and big data analytics? Do you even have a tiny bit of knowledge of hadoop? Splunk? No? Then how can you compete with the heavy hitters who are investing heavily in machine learning and big data analytics? This is what setting strategic directions are about now to run a successful business. That's at the top level and mid level.

Hopefully, you'll retire before this new-wave of information saturation starts to negatively impact you because of your antiquated beliefs about education and knowledge. You don't want to be part of the boomers that are forced to retire early because you've failed to fundamentally adapt to a changing market.

It may seem like I'm being condescending but I'm not. That's just the way it is.

No but I understand CRISPR and can edit a genome. Computers aren't the only tech out there. I also as I have often said don't use my first degree for work, like Peterson it's not what I studied but where that opens doors for me. That equation is not going to change in the foreseeable future.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
No but I understand CRISPR and can edit a genome. Computers aren't the only tech out there. I also as I have often said don't use my first degree for work, like Peterson it's not what I studied but where that opens doors for me. That equation is not going to change in the foreseeable future.

So you think that information and "computational statistics and data analysis" are not involved in genomic innovations vis-a-vis CRISPR, eh?

Then you'r not aware of the necessary steps biomedical science has taken with CRISPR and big data.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/10/24/big-data-meets-crispr-cloud-biology-platform-speed-crop-improvement-via-gene-editing/

I believe I understand your perspective. You'r cautioning against technological elitism and I'm cautioning against antiquated learning institutions. Obviously, science is not on your side as the steady march of science and technology will proceed with or without you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So you think that information and "computational statistics and data analysis" are not involved in genomic innovations vis-a-vis CRISPR, eh?

Then you'r not aware of the necessary steps biomedical science has taken with CRISPR and big data.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/10/24/big-data-meets-crispr-cloud-biology-platform-speed-crop-improvement-via-gene-editing/

I believe I understand your perspective. You'r cautioning against technological elitism and I'm cautioning against antiquated learning institutions. Obviously, science is not on your side as the steady march of science and technology will proceed with or without you.

Data is automated, you realise the top high schools in silicon valley no longer teach programming or ICT because they believe both are becoming simpler and more intuitive. It's interesting as you warn against a classical education the technological elite aspire to a return to basics.

What I'm arguing is far simpler, look past a person's credentials and see if what they are saying fits the facts or are they fitting the facts to support what they are saying.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Data is automated, you realise the top high schools in silicon valley no longer teach programming or ICT because they believe both are becoming simpler and more intuitive.

I'm not sure where you hear or read about such stupid bullshit like this. You're coming off worse than Fly or you're just trolling.

They are teaching coding to students in silicon valley and it's such a big deal that they even have non-proift programs for those that cannot afford the private schools:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/11/the-privilege-to-code/

Originally posted by Putinbot1
It's interesting as you warn against a classical education the technological elite aspire to a return to basics.

The opposite you mean because even more technological innovations are coming from 17-19 year old entrepreneurs than ever before.

https://www.visioncritical.com/blog/entrepreneurial-gen-z

I honestly think you're trolling. You state clearly wrong-fact x and wait for me to reply to disprove it. And you're repeating this over and over.

Coding is taught more than ever in secondary school.

Technology innovations are coming from the younger and younger.

Young people are becoming more and more disenfranchised with academic institutions and are learning more organically now than ever before and it is continues to change.

Big data, big business, technology is in everything bla bla bla

Originally posted by Putinbot1
What I'm arguing is far simpler, look past a person's credentials and see if what they are saying fits the facts or are they fitting the facts to support what they are saying.

My bad. I thought your argument was the things you were posting about: his credentials, him being a hack, and getting criticized for talking about lobsters outside of his credentials.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not sure where you hear or read about such stupid bullshit like this. You're coming off worse than Fly or you're just trolling.

They are teaching coding to students in silicon valley and it's such a big deal that they even have non-proift programs for those that cannot afford the private schools:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/11/the-privilege-to-code/

The opposite you mean because even more technological innovations are coming from 17-19 year old entrepreneurs than ever before.

https://www.visioncritical.com/blog/entrepreneurial-gen-z

I honestly think you're trolling. You state clearly wrong-fact x and wait for me to reply to disprove it. And you're repeating this over and over.

Coding is taught more than ever in secondary school.

Technology innovations are coming from the younger and younger.

Young people are becoming more and more disenfranchised with academic institutions and are learning more organically now than ever before and it is continues to change.

Big data, big business, technology is in everything bla bla bla

My bad. I thought your argument was the things you were posting about: his credentials, him being a hack, and getting criticized for talking about lobsters outside of his credentials.

Yeah but no,

https://amp.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-parents-raising-their-kids-tech-free-red-flag-2018-2

Silicon Valley parents can see firsthand, either through living or working in the Bay Area, that technology is potentially harmful to kids.
Many parents are now restricting, or outright banning, screen time for their children.
The trend follows a long-standing practice among high-level tech executives who have set limits for their own children for years.

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2015/dec/02/schools-that-ban-tablets-traditional-education-silicon-valley-london

technology
Parents working in Silicon Valley are sending their children to a school where there’s not a computer in sight – and they’re not alone

And lots of other info out there.

No, his credentials are fine it's fitting evidence to fit a hypothesis which is inherently flawed and using those credentials to lend credibility.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Everyone makes the retarded argument "ermagerd, lobsters diverged from us a long time ago, that makes it retarded" that's the point, the point is to show that it's not a cultural phenomenon, but a biological one so deep that it manifests across species as different as humans and lobsters.

And yes, Jordan Peterson does in the broad span of his work cite to creatures we are more closely related to, such as when referring to experiments on rats, or the social structures of other primates. He does mention them as well. Everyone just likes to hone in on the misconception that he only talks about the lobster.

It's also a complete mischaracterization of him to suggest that he's saying people shouldn't cooperate. Because he does mention closer relatives such as primates, and when discussing their social structures he mentions that things tend to not turn out so well for the alpha chimps that aren't cooperative or reciprocal in their relationship with the other chimps.

He has also stated that a reasonable political left-wing is a necessary part of political discourse, because in his view just as the existence of competence hierarchies is necessary in the pursuit of something of value which the right recognizes, the left is also necessary because people are also displaced and left at the bottom in unfortunate positions, and that it's not a good thing to have people stack up at the bottom in need because then they're suffering as individuals and it destabilizes society as a whole. He has actually praised some of the historic accomplishments of the political left in Canada such as workers protections, the Canadian healthcare system, etc. and think it's a good thing for part of the political system to advocate for the working class.

He also has said for people to adopt responsibility not just for selfish ambition but so they can be of use to the people around them. Something he said was that it's an admirable goal to be the kind of person the rest of your family can rely on at a funeral when a loved one dies. He argues that the point of personal responsibility isn't just so that you can take care of yourself but also your family and the broader community.

You seem to have this misguided understanding of Jordan Peterson's views that essentially amounts to a caricature. He's not some proponent of the idea that cooperation is bad and that it should just be every man for himself, and has said many such things to the contrary.

I do enjoy seeing people twist themselves into pretzels over JP.