Thanos vs. Captain Marvel

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And Proxima started literally both their encounters with cheapshots. And maybe she has a hard time focusing when her boyfriend is potentially dying a few dozen feet away, considering she lost her brother on the battlefield.

And you could literally say that about any hero. Hell, just mentioning Bucky's name at a certain point in time was enough to throw Cap off in a fight.

Most of the other Avengers are able to easily rally back despite being cheapshot or being on the backfoot. They're still able to stay true to their power levels despite their teammates being in danger. You can distract Cap for a second or two by mentioning Bucky but that doesn't degrade the rest of his performance in battle.

Wanda is very impressive when she's the one on the offensive. Once she's put on the defensive then she struggles. It's pretty much what happens in all of her fight scenes.

Originally posted by h1a8
That was Wanda who damaged the blade. Thanos later threw it and caused an explosion well before he fought Carol.

Ah, right! I saw it last might and was mistaken. Sorry about that.

However, Carol physically nearly breaking his fingers did happen.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Most of the other Avengers are able to easily rally back despite being cheapshot or being on the backfoot. They're still able to stay true to their power levels despite their teammates being in danger. You can distract Cap for a second or two by mentioning Bucky but that doesn't degrade the rest of his performance in battle.

Wanda is very impressive when she's the one on the offensive. Once she's put on the defensive then she struggles. It's pretty much what happens in all of her fight scenes.

Younger Cap literally lost to older Cap because Bucky was mentioned, which distracted him long enough to get poked with the Mind Spear, despite the fact that he'd actually been in a winning position up until then. Crossbones bought himself enough time to blow himself up by mentioning him. And there are other examples with other characters as well. And, again, Wanda did rally multiple times, but chose not to grab Corvus and Proxima and crush them/ragdoll them etc, as we know she can, but instead chose to pick Vision up and flee. Also, Vision is much more than a teammate to her, as you well know. Then there is also the fact that he had the Mind Stone in his head, which they saw Corvus go for almost immediately at the beginning of the fight, so had to get that out of there as well. Fact is, it's one showing that involves context, in comparison with multiple better showings where she was able to fight with more freedom. And we don't even know how that would have ended. Wanda was still standing and ready to face them when the other three jumped in.

And please elaborate on your claim about that happening in "all of her fights". What other fights beyond the Proxima one are you referring to? She got put on the defensive by Thanos, and proceeded to break a piece of his sword and then started crushing him to death. She was doing fine throughout the Civil War fight scene, despite everything going on, until she literally got attacked from behind while occupied. She was wrecking stuff all over Endgame, including breaking Thanos' sword, nearly killing him, TK'ing a Leviathan etc. and was only briefly knocked away after literally taking a hit from a ship cannon.

Carol stomps.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Younger Cap literally lost to older Cap because Bucky was mentioned, which distracted him long enough to get poked with the Mind Spear, despite the fact that he'd actually been in a winning position up until then. Crossbones bought himself enough time to blow himself up by mentioning him. And there are other examples with other characters as well. And, again, Wanda did rally multiple times, but chose not to grab Corvus and Proxima and crush them/ragdoll them etc, as we know she can, but instead chose to pick Vision up and flee. Also, Vision is much more than a teammate to her, as you well know. Then there is also the fact that he had the Mind Stone in his head, which they saw Corvus go for almost immediately at the beginning of the fight, so had to get that out of there as well. Fact is, it's one showing that involves context, in comparison with multiple better showings where she was able to fight with more freedom. And we don't even know how that would have ended. Wanda was still standing and ready to face them when the other three jumped in.

And please elaborate on your claim about that happening in "all of her fights". What other fights beyond the Proxima one are you referring to? She got put on the defensive by Thanos, and proceeded to break a piece of his sword and then started crushing him to death. She was doing fine throughout the Civil War fight scene, despite everything going on, until she literally got attacked from behind while occupied. She was wrecking stuff all over Endgame, including breaking Thanos' sword, nearly killing him, TK'ing a Leviathan etc. and was only briefly knocked away after literally taking a hit from a ship cannon.

Old Cap and Young Cap are literally equal in stats, so a single second of hesitation or distraction can easily swing the battle. Rumlow distracted Cap for a second, long enough to detonate a bomb. It didn't magically enable him to match Cap in h2h combat.

As for examples of Wanda's fight scenes, lets do a tally shall we?
1. AoU
- easily demolishes Ultronbots. I don't recall any scene where they actually put her on the defensive or are able to hurt her
- Takes out Ultron's "heart" while he's already powerless to stop her

2. Civil War
- Drops cars on IM while he's distracted. He never even tries to take a shot at her
- Throws around cars in the airport battle while no-one is actively engaging her
- throws BW while BW is busy fighting Clint - again no-one is actively engaging Wanda at this point
- throws BP while BP is busy fighting Bucky - again no-one is actively engaging Wanda
- throw flying cars at Warmachine - again no-one is actively engaging Wanda at this point
- Warmchine fires a sonic blast at Wanda as she's holding up a tower - this is the first shot thrown at Wanda throughout the fight and she's unable to recover from it in time to rejoin the fight

3. Infinity War
- gets hit with a surprise attack from Proxima - is able to fight back but is unable to defeat Proxima. If I discount all the surprise attacks from both Wanda and Proxima, they each managed to hit each other once only. Not a great showing when you consider how much lower Proxima's power levels seem to be.
- She blasts Corvus twice but only while Corvus is busy with Vision and Wanda is otherwise not actively engaged.
- Smashes a whole bunch of Outriders in Wakanda but only while she was not being actively attacked.
- Gets sucker-punched by Proxima and this knocks her out for a bit, waking up later just in time to throw and smash Proxima while Proxima was about to kill BW. Again, Wanda was not actively engaged when she did this and managed to attack Proxima while Proxima was distracted.
- Was able to slow down Thanos as he approached her, but it should be noted that Thanos was only walking forward, not actively attacking
- Thanos backhands her and she's completely knocked out, unable to do anything as Thanos kills Vision

4. Endgame
- Is able to match Thanos for a bit then eventually gets the better of Thanos and starts crushing him, but it should be noted she never took a direct hit from Thanos during their scuffle. The first direct hit she suffered was from the ship canons and they take her out of the battle for quite a bit (even though she managed to shield)

So like I said, everytime she looks impressive in combat it's almost always because she's able hit them with surprise attacks or at the very least she's prepared and on the offensive (like against Thanos). But the moment she takes a direct hit she starts to struggle. Her fight against Proxima is probably her most impressive display of "rallying back" and yet when you consider that BW was able to match Proxima for a bit, then it isn't really that impressive on Wanda's part.

I don't really know why you're arguing against me on this. I'm not saying Wanda isn't powerful, she clearly is. But we all know that she's neither a highly trained combatant nor is she a highly experienced one, so it makes sense that her fighting instincts and reflexes get a bit frazzled whenever she's pressured in combat.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Old Cap and Young Cap are literally equal in stats, so a single second of hesitation or distraction can easily swing the battle. Rumlow distracted Cap for a second, long enough to detonate a bomb. It didn't magically enable him to match Cap in h2h combat.

As for examples of Wanda's fight scenes, lets do a tally shall we?
1. AoU
- easily demolishes Ultronbots. I don't recall any scene where they actually put her on the defensive or are able to hurt her
- Takes out Ultron's "heart" while he's already powerless to stop her

2. Civil War
- Drops cars on IM while he's distracted. He never even tries to take a shot at her
- Throws around cars in the airport battle while no-one is actively engaging her
- throws BW while BW is busy fighting Clint - again no-one is actively engaging Wanda at this point
- throws BP while BP is busy fighting Bucky - again no-one is actively engaging Wanda
- throw flying cars at Warmachine - again no-one is actively engaging Wanda at this point
- Warmchine fires a sonic blast at Wanda as she's holding up a tower - this is the first shot thrown at Wanda throughout the fight and she's unable to recover from it in time to rejoin the fight

3. Infinity War
- gets hit with a surprise attack from Proxima - is able to fight back but is unable to defeat Proxima. If I discount all the surprise attacks from both Wanda and Proxima, they each managed to hit each other once only. Not a great showing when you consider how much lower Proxima's power levels seem to be.
- She blasts Corvus twice but only while Corvus is busy with Vision and Wanda is otherwise not actively engaged.
- Smashes a whole bunch of Outriders in Wakanda but only while she was not being actively attacked.
- Gets sucker-punched by Proxima and this knocks her out for a bit, waking up later just in time to throw and smash Proxima while Proxima was about to kill BW. Again, Wanda was not actively engaged when she did this and managed to attack Proxima while Proxima was distracted.
- Was able to slow down Thanos as he approached her, but it should be noted that Thanos was only walking forward, not actively attacking
- Thanos backhands her and she's completely knocked out, unable to do anything as Thanos kills Vision

4. Endgame
- Is able to match Thanos for a bit then eventually gets the better of Thanos and starts crushing him, but it should be noted she never took a direct hit from Thanos during their scuffle. The first direct hit she suffered was from the ship canons and they take her out of the battle for quite a bit (even though she managed to shield)

So like I said, everytime she looks impressive in combat it's almost always because she's able hit them with surprise attacks or at the very least she's prepared and on the offensive (like against Thanos). But the moment she takes a direct hit she starts to struggle. Her fight against Proxima is probably her most impressive display of "rallying back" and yet when you consider that BW was able to match Proxima for a bit, then it isn't really that impressive on Wanda's part.

I don't really know why you're arguing against me on this. I'm not saying Wanda isn't powerful, she clearly is. But we all know that she's neither a highly trained combatant nor is she a highly experienced one, so it makes sense that her fighting instincts and reflexes get a bit frazzled whenever she's pressured in combat.

Many, many feats happen while characters are not engaged first. So, I can use that same reasoning to make a lot of people seem a lot less impressive. Besides, you claimed "every fight". This is clearly not the case, by your own admission here. Wanda was inexperienced in AoU. Since then, she actively served as a member of the Avengers for years, in universe, going on multiple missions with Cap and others (which is covered more in the tie-in comics).

And I raise this point because many, many people use that showing to flat-out lowball her, while ignoring the context of the situation, yet downplay her better showings and label them things like OOC etc. Now, I am not saying that is you. But you were just the one who responded to my post.

And the ship blast didn't knock her out for that long. She was back for the Girl Power pose before TK'ing a Leviathan, just after Carol had rocked up, blasted through the ship and grabbed the IG from Spiderman, all which happened pretty much right after each other. And Thanos tried to land a hit, but was unable to in melee. He tried. She blocked him. And she broke his sword. Then lifted him off the ground and started crushing him, forcing him to make Corvus engage the ship cannons. So, she turned the tables on Thanos, despite being in a defensive position at one point. The different between this time and with Proxima, Thanos had already taken everything from her (her own words), so she had no more distractions, no more reason to hold back.

Anyway, the point is, for the purposes of a forum fight, we generally assume both opponents are ready and fighting at their best. Not that one manages to wrong foot the other one 10 seconds before the fight starts, giving them an advantage when the bell rings. So, in a forum context, Wanda's higher end showings should take precedence over lower ends, especially when many of the lower ends involve her being attacked from behind or further context.

And it doesn't seem unreasonable, seeing as most people tend to place greater value on high-end showings when debating characters. And I don't have a problem with that. That's simply how people debate here. We don't assume a character is going to start in a handicapped position, and then debate them from a handicapped position, unless it is stipulated in the OP. We assume that they are fit and ready when the fight starts.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Many, many feats happen while characters are not engaged first. So, I can use that same reasoning to make a lot of people seem a lot less impressive. Besides, you claimed "every fight". This is clearly not the case, by your own admission here. Wanda was inexperienced in AoU. Since then, she actively served as a member of the Avengers for years, in universe, going on multiple missions with Cap and others (which is covered more in the tie-in comics).

And I raise this point because many, many people use that showing to flat-out lowball her, while ignoring the context of the situation, yet downplay her better showings and label them things like OOC etc. Now, I am not saying that is you. But you were just the one who responded to my post.

And the ship blast didn't knock her out for that long. She was back for the Girl Power pose before TK'ing a Leviathan, just after Carol had rocked up, blasted through the ship and grabbed the IG from Spiderman, all which happened pretty much right after each other. And Thanos tried to land a hit, but was unable to in melee. He tried. She blocked him. And she broke his sword. Then lifted him off the ground and started crushing him, forcing him to make Corvus engage the ship cannons. So, she turned the tables on Thanos, despite being in a defensive position at one point. The different between this time and with Proxima, Thanos had already taken everything from her (her own words), so she had no more distractions, no more reason to hold back.

Anyway, the point is, for the purposes of a forum fight, we generally assume both opponents are ready and fighting at their best. Not that one manages to wrong foot the other one 10 seconds before the fight starts, giving them an advantage when the bell rings. So, in a forum context, Wanda's higher end showings should take precedence over lower ends, especially when many of the lower ends involve her being attacked from behind or further context.

And it doesn't seem unreasonable, seeing as most people tend to place greater value on high-end showings when debating characters. And I don't have a problem with that. That's simply how people debate here. We don't assume a character is going to start in a handicapped position, and then debate them from a handicapped position, unless it is stipulated in the OP. We assume that they are fit and ready when the fight starts.

This is what I said:

"Once she's put on the defensive then she struggles. It's pretty much what happens in all of her fight scenes."

This is true. In all her fight scenes, if she's never put on the defensive then she rocks. Once she's put on the defensive then she's rocked.

Defending yourself and being on the defensive are two different things. Her blocking a single hit from Thanos is not her being on the "defensive". Being on the defensive is when you are unable to retaliate in equal measure because you are too busy trying to deal with their hits (whether you're blocking, dodging or getting hit). Blocking a hit or a few hits then counter-attacking in equal or greater amount is not "being on the defensive", that's simply trading blows.

Nowhere in Wanda's fight with Thanos was she ever on the defensive. She only had to block once but was the one attacking the entire time. There was no point where she looked to be at the disadvantage up until the point where she gets hit by the canons and that takes her out of their fight. Sure she's not out for long, but it's long enough that she's no longer able to continue with their fight. In other words, she was unable to "rally back" fast enough from taking a hit in order to fight back Thanos.

So my claim is true. When she does get put on the defensive (i.e. taking a hit or having to deal with multiple hits) then she gets rocked and is unable to rally back effectively. Do you have any examples of her defeating an enemy after she's taken a solid hit or two within their fight?

If you want a good example of what it means to be on the defensive and being able to rally back take a look at Cap's fights with Batroc and Crossbones. At the beginning he's clearly taking hits far more often than he can return them... but then he's eventually able to rally back and kick their asses.

You know how we debate her in the MvF, we base things off of oncscreen feats, not assumptions. And the fact is that as per on screen feats, majority of Wanda's best fighting feats are when she cheapshots her enemies. Believe me when I say that I wish this wasn't so, as she's my favorite female MCU hero, but that's what they've shown on screen.

What happens off screen is simply assumption. Fact still remains that every single time she's actually taken a hit she was unable to recover from it enough to finish the fight and defeat her opponent, at least not without someone else's assistance. And yes, we assume that in a forum fight the combatants are prepared for each other... which is why I said that Wanda is very effective when she has time to properly prepare. We don't assume they start in a handicap position but it certainly is possible to end up in a disadvantageous position at some point in the fight... and right now nothing Wanda has done has shown that she can easily recover and easily continue to fight at peak capacity once she actually gets hurt.

There was only a year of difference between Age of Ultron and Civil War. That's not exactly a lot of time to either gain experience or training, not when compared to the other fighters in the MCU.

Thanos mauls her. Too skilled and his sword would kill her. He swatted her away like he did Thor, Cap, Iron man multiple times but someone always filled in against Thanos. He was a one man wrecking crew of the heroes.

Thanos only literally needed the Power Stone to topple Carol because she was tanking every one of his hits.

Carol shit stomps Thanos.

Originally posted by Impediment
Thanos only literally needed the Power Stone to topple Carol because she was tanking every one of his hits.

Carol shit stomps Thanos.

Ps. He tanked her hits prior to boot.

Pps. Thanos resisted SW all out you ruined my life mood with the power to destroy the mind stone.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Incorrect. He tossed her. She came back after he was minus his sword and he still capitalized. Greater skill, greater mind, unbeatable in one on one combat. The heroes had one chance with time travel and universal help against Thanos and she still lost.

Ps. He tanked her hits prior to boot.

Pps. Thanos resisted SW all out you ruined my life mood with the power to destroy the mind stone.

Resisted SW? Yea being crushed to death until he needed outside interference. I know you are 75% schtick but unfortunately there is part of you that is actually this clueless.

Originally posted by WolvesofBabylon
Resisted SW? Yea being crushed to death until he needed outside interference. I know you are 75% schtick but unfortunately there is part of you that is actually this clueless.

Originally posted by quanchi112
She needed help to get the gauntlet to the van but guess who stopped that on his own. Thanos, kid. He then beat her too. Sorry, but 1 out of 14 million with all the heroes against Thanos with time travel is pretty much driven home the entire film. Thanos beat her. Told you all he would show her up.

Carol wins decisively.

Lol Quan predictably trying to alter what the film clearly showed, and what Feige has already clearly stated.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos never beat SW.

😂

Originally posted by Stigma
Carol wins decisively.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol Quan predictably trying to alter what the film clearly showed, and what Feige has already clearly stated.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos is unbeatable in one on one combat. He is better than she is and proved it. Film evidence shows I was right. You claimed he would not touch her you twit.

Of course she took the fight close, she had to get the Infinity Glove off him you Moron. They literally needed a plot device to justify her fighting close up.

And yet she still no sold his best hits! And then overpowered him onto his knees!! So hes clearly not unbeatable one on one LMAO

Feige agreed and Endgame agrees. Scarlett Witch also took him. And shes not even the most powerful Avenger.

Unbeatable one on one my ass 😂

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Of course she took the fight close, she had to get the Infinity Glove off him you Moron. They literally needed a plot device to justify her fighting close up.

And yet she still no sold his best hits! And then overpowered him onto his knees!! So hes clearly not unbeatable one on one LMAO

Feige agreed and Endgame agrees. Scarlett Witch also took him. And shes not even the most powerful Avenger.

Unbeatable one on one my ass 😂

She used her power to shield her. He used his acumen and what she tried preventing him from using to beat her. I told you despite her aid she still lost against Thanos.

Carol is powerful Thanos is unbeatable in one on one combat. Both things can be true. SW lost. Thanos used his resources just as the heroes used team effort to try to keep the stones from him. SW has the power to destroy an infinity stone. Her power is insane. Thanos tanked an all out assault on his entire body to later best Carol.

Even tony stark said he is unbeatable. Thanos broke the avengers mentally. Then he broke them on the battlefield. Time travel, a legion of superheroes, and a sacrifice with the entire might of the stones was necessary for 1 out of 14,000,605.

Thanos is on another level. Unbeatable in one on one combat.