True form Darkseid vs Ivory King

Originally posted by Stoic
That most certainly is proof. You just don't want to accept it. Along with that is the statement of them being "manifestations" and the immediate production of hundreds of such manifestations.

Now YOU are making a positive assertion that they are literally the same three cosmic abstract killers. Prove it. You have yet to do so.

it has already been proven that BOTH versions of the ivory kings we saw were "adults" who were waaaay above the level of secret wars II beyonder. so the burden falls totally on you to prove that adult ivory kings we saw varied in power.

mentioning the high and low showings of the adults doesnt prove anything. supermans benched earth for days but then struggled to lift buildings and whatnot. point is, the same characters can definitely have good and bad showings. actually every single comic book character DOES have good and bad showings.why pretend the adult ivory kings are exempt from this truism?

Originally posted by Stoic

They're also not taking into consideration that plot had to make the hero characters look good. No one, and I mean No one would have been content with the idea of Thor, and to a lesser extent Hyperion getting one shot into blood puddles.

PIS was mostly what that scene was about.

You have to really be trollified to think that Thor and Hyperion did anything special.

They got stomped by ONE Beyonder ... period,

ONE Beyonder who was obviously holding back, taking its sweet time,
otherwise it would've ripped off Thor head, instead of his arm. 👆

But yeah, somehow, troll infected ideas believe Thor and Hyperion did better vs an army.
I mean are ya kidding me? You can't make this shit up. 😆

Originally posted by Stoic

Anyone that knows anything about the Starbrand knows that a brand user can combat cosmics, and for it to have been so easily pushed aside should tell you something.

Only the mysterious Starbrand, unleashing it's full power, was able to truly damage a Beyonder.

That's pis likewise,
because "adult" units (alone) were battling and killing universal and multiversal Cosmics.

---------------------------------------------------------

The Beyonder killed by Starbrand was at least stellar level,
although he might've been beyond that,
and only highlighted that detail just to make Hyperion feel silly
when Hyperion boasted about being the sun.

Regardless, did the "planetary" explosion kill a "stellar" level being,
which doesn't make sense,
or, was the Starbrand's depth of power far beyond the scope of area it can affect?

hm

---------------------------------------------------------

The Other Beyonder was not killed,
and that Beyonder decided not to engage offensively or defensively.

It just stood there, did nothing,
and waited patiently to be warped by Ex nihilli, Abyss and the Gardeners.

Sure, Ex nihilii, Abyss and the Gardeners all died in the effort, but that was funny still.

yeah. makes so much more sense to just ignore every low showing these nothings have and just wank their high feats only. turn a blind eye to everything we dont like right lol?

theyd love you on comicvine😂

Who's ignoring anything? Is the bias so extreme
you can't notice we're addressing the low showings in detail?

It may make sense to you, that a "planetary" explosion
would kill someone who can destroy and create stars,
which, on avg, stars are at least over 1 million times bigger than earth-like planets.

But to the sagacious, it's not sensible.

So we suggest, postulate and surf through opinions based on facts
to try and find a rational behind the senselessness.

At-least we're trying to find logic here instead of just writing it off as "PIS/CIS."

like i said to hulk- every single character has high and low feats. thats just how it works and the ivory kings are obviously not exempt from this truism.

in one issue they kill the cosmic beings. in the next issue they get wrecked by meager forces. you cant rationalize that or find logic in it. the ivory kings obviously had lots of power but they were able to be killed by waaaaay less in the end.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
The vast difference in performance is my proof.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
What is your counter?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
We see possibly hundreds of beyonder manifestations pouring out and the ones shown are specifically referred to as manifestations.

You can't apply very specific definitions to generic terms and then call it your evidence.

And this idea originated in the—now refuted—misconception that there was a discrepancy between the Ivory Kings and the Beyonders, a misconception that no one who followed the series at the time of its release would make since it was revealed in New Avengers #30 that the Ivory Kings were the Beyonders. Prior to this they had only been referred to as the Ivory Kings.

Darkseid one-shots them.

Easily.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
no.

it has already been proven that BOTH versions of the ivory kings we saw were "adults" who were waaaay above the level of secret wars II beyonder. so the burden falls totally on you to prove that adult ivory kings we saw varied in power.

mentioning the high and low showings of the adults doesnt prove anything. supermans benched earth for days but then struggled to lift buildings and whatnot. point is, the same characters can definitely have good and bad showings. actually every single comic book character DOES have good and bad showings.why pretend the adult ivory kings are exempt from this truism?

There one Superman and he is not a manifestation.

Beyonder power can manifest hundreds or thousands.

Why did you put Stoic’s name on the quote?

No one disputes that the Ivory Kings are Beyonders.

Darkseid is a pussy

Originally posted by TheHulkster
There one Superman and he is not a manifestation.

Beyonder power can manifest hundreds or thousands.

stop dodging this simple question troll

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
cool so prove the manifestations who fought the cosmic beings were weaker then the manifestations who fought the avengers.

stop dodging this simple question troll

Uhm, prove the manifestations who fought the Avengers are the same as the ones who fought the cosmics drooling fanboy.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Uhm, prove the manifestations who fought the Avengers are the same as the ones who fought the cosmics drooling fanboy.

we were never once given any reason to believe the 'adult' ivory kings varied in power. all that was said is that they were alot more powerful then the 'child' ivory kings. so if youre saying they did vary in power then the burden falls on you to prove it with something besides your troll opinions.

if you respond back with more dodging and question ignoring then i'll have my answer and will have won this debate also.

Originally posted by DudpoolXXX
LMAO! thats not how burden of proof works, genius.

we were never once given any reason to believe the 'adult' ivory kings varied in power. all that was said is that they were alot more powerful then the 'child' ivory kings. so if youre saying they did vary in power then the burden falls on you to prove it with something besides your troll opinions.

if you respond back with more dodging and question ignoring then i'll have my answer and will have won this debate also.

Jeez, can you read? The statement you are responding to was regarding whether those are the literal same Beyonders as the cosmic killers, not about varied power levels. Your altering the bar is telling.

It looks bad to threaten to declare victory when arguing a strawman.

He's right, though.

The source material makes no mention of the 'adult units' having variable levels of power. So if indeed that is what you're proposing, then the burden of proof does fall on you.

You cannot ask someone to prove a negative.

Where is the term "adult units" used? Did I miss that? I only recall the SW Beyonder being called a child unit and the ones fighting Avengers as "manifestations".

What I address above is whether the literal cosmic killers are the ones facing the Avengers. That, to me, is an unknown.

With that, if there are potentially hundreds or thousands of Beyonders or manifestations, how is there a notion of them all being equal the default position? Why send three against the cosmics when they could have sent 20?

So basically, with all things considered, we have an unknown, thus the cosmic killers should be judged on their own performance.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Darkseid is a pussy

But stronger than the Beyonders.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Where is the term "adult units" used? Did I miss that? I only recall the SW Beyonder being called a child unit and the ones fighting Avengers as "manifestations".

What I address above is whether the literal cosmic killers are the ones facing the Avengers. That, to me, is an unknown.

With that, if there are potentially hundreds or thousands of Beyonders or manifestations, how is there a notion of them all being equal the default position? Why send three against the cosmics when they could have sent 20?

So basically, with all things considered, we have an unknown, thus the cosmic killers should be judged on their own performance.

Bios from the HickmanWars Handbook:

Here Pym makes the distinction in NA #30:

Here Owen gives us final clarification in NA #33:

But as mentioned previously, that just tells us the adult units are far more powerful than the child units. Absolutely nothing from the source material states that the adult units from HickmanWars have varying levels of power. That is purely you own personal conjecture.

The adult Beyonders who fought the Avengers being referred to as "manifestations" certainly doesn't mean they were weaker by proxy, so I'm not sure why you keep mentioning that like it proves anything..?

So again, if your contention is that the adult units from HickmanWars did vary in power, then the burden falls entirely on you to prove it with some sort of explicit/incontrovertible evidence. You haven't done that yet, and I'm quite confident that you can't, so why are you still arguing the point?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Where is the term "adult units" used? Did I miss that?

"I could tell you about the child unit from the Secret Wars. Visually modified to mimic what it perceived...it crunched a universe to make a toy...but these things crunch universes and are most certainly not playing a game."

It's clear from what's said that the non-child units are operating on a larger scale.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
What I address above is whether the literal cosmic killers are the ones facing the Avengers. That, to me, is an unknown.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
With that, if there are potentially hundreds or thousands of Beyonders or manifestations, how is there a notion of them all being equal the default position?

The problem is that you're trying to use your observation as evidence for your conjecture. The way it normally work is: you make an observation, you come up with an explanation for it, and then you find separate evidence to bolster your explanation.

The reason for this is because you may reach a hundred different conclusions through that very same observation, but unless there's evidence to back up those conclusions they're completely worthless.

Well, aside from the fact that one can crunch a universe, and tank multi-universe attacks,

but the other can't tank a planet scale explosion.

You think that's equality? 😐