The Presence vs The One Above All

Started by Insane Titan6 pages

Originally posted by Galan007
Everything Starlin has written for Marvel since the original IG saga is canon, afaik.

-"Infinity War", "Infinity Crusade", and "Infinity Abyss" are all canon (obviously.)
-"Marvel: The End"(2003) is canon (referenced in outside canon material.)
-The "Thanos" maxiseries(2003-2004) is canon (referenced in outside canon material.)
-The "Thanos Annual"(2014) is canon (references past canon events and paves the way for the first Infinity Trilogy.)
-The first Infinity Trilogy(2014-2016) is canon (it directly references the events of Hickman Wars.)
-The second Infinity Trilogy(2018-2019) is canon (it simply builds upon the first Trilogy, which is canon.)

But like Astner said: even IF the Infinity Trilogies weren't directly canon to 616, they still take place within the Marvel multiverse, and still involve TOAA... And since there is only one TOAA in Marvel(duh), ALL showings are canon for him regardless.

if think Enerzu means they aren’t canon because he doesn’t like them, seriously.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not that I'm aware of.

Doesn't she admit to not being able to hear the thoughts of lesser gods?

Elaine said that she cannot know what goes on in the hearts and heads of other gods:
https://i.imgur.com/wXJaTyl.jpg

...But that's Elaine.

Elaine is still learning how to BE 'God'. She didn't gain Yahweh's full experience/omniscience when she gained the demiurgic power. She's been piecing things together as she goes. As Lucifer said: "It's called learning by doing.":
https://i.imgur.com/TQouQIa.jpg

Anyway, Elaine isn't The Presence, so her lack of proficiency with said power isn't relevant to this discussion.

All powerful is all powerful. This thread is weird, not to mention that everyone should already realize that they're essentially the same thing.

I would think that if you gain omnipotence, you would need not have to learn how to do anything. But back to standard Presence, some questions.

Is he killed by Gabriel and if so, what were the circumstances?

Has he been tricked by Lucifer?

A few years ago I would have said TOAA destroys the Presence. Nowadays it seems TOAA is a joke (I mean "regulators" really?!). Presence should win.

Originally posted by zopzop
A few years ago I would have said TOAA destroys the Presence. Nowadays it seems TOAA is a joke (I mean "regulators" really?!). Presence should win.

Read the comic. The same thing would've happened to the Presence if Thanos was in the DCU. Taking on the opinion of a hater without reading the full context for yourself is the wrong way to go. And TOAA isn't merely universal. Mr Mind should've been called out for attempting to begin a flame war.

Lucifer wrecks The Presence.

Who cares?

I know that vsbattles has been referenced several times here. Are the notes here accurate as well as the images showing the Presence was killed?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Presence

Michael wrecks The Presence.

Presence is omnipotent as "a character" who is bound by setting
TOAA is not even omnipotent "as a character"
So, Presence will win.

I put meta-character above omnipotent character bound by setting though.

What is "omnipotent as character"?

If we're going to be thorough and use the philosophical definitions then neither of them are omnipotent, and neither is any interpretation of the writer avatars.

Originally posted by Galan007

Writer avatars like Morrison in DC and Kirby in Marvel are holistically different from the Presence and TOAA, imo.

The former make the actual comic book and all content within it(in a very real/literal sense), while the latter are still part of the story created for them by the RW writers -- they are still fictional cogs in the machine, as it were. It comes down to metafiction vs. normal fiction here.

Morrison in DC? Are you talking his appearance in Animal Man?
Didn't they turn him into an actual character called "The Writer", who got killed during a battle, because he couldn't type fast enough?

To me Marvels way is still the metafiction, if we ignore Starlins dumb "retcon".

Originally posted by Insane Titan

if think Enerzu means they aren’t canon because he doesn’t like them, seriously.

Yes. Me calling the Starlin Thanos stories post Infinity Gauntlet was meant as a joke.

And I actually like Starlins way to write. His dialogue reads like poetry. But at the same time I strongly feel like everything he wrote after Infinity Gauntlet went downhill.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
What is "omnipotent as character"?

All powerful as long as writers and settings allow.

Originally posted by Enzeru
Morrison in DC? Are you talking his appearance in Animal Man?
Didn't they turn him into an actual character called "The Writer", who got killed during a battle, because he couldn't type fast enough?
They are different characters fundamentally.

The character from Animal Man #26 literally was a metafictional avatar of the real-world writer(ie. Grant Morrison):

For all intents and purposes, that character was Morrison:

Conversely, "The Writer" character you mentioned appeared in an issue of Suicide Squad, and was written by Ostrander. The character was very obviously put there solely to mock Morrison's original intent(he even says as much), and was no longer written to be the Supreme Being. That depiction has absolutely NO bearing on the Morrison avatar, as he was written by Morrison himself IN Animal Man.

Writers can ultimately write themselves in a comic however they want. Sometimes they appear as average/lowly humans, which is how toon-force characters(like She-Hulk, Deadpool, Lobo, Doom, etc.) have been able to 'beat', or even 'kill', their own writers.

However, sometimes companies opt to go the full metafiction route with writers and put them in books with absolute Supreme Being status/privilege -- privileges which obviously transcend the boundaries/limitations of any other 'fictional' character(s) that appear in the comic book. As mentioned, we've seen this with writer avatars like Morrison, Carlin, Kirby, etc.

...And that level/status/caliber of Supreme Being is what is what I am referring to here. Because they are meant to be literal representations of the real world staff, they are above absolutely *any* fictional characters that appear in the comic book(s) by default... Even the likes of the Presence and TOAA(despite their 'omnipotence', they are still just fictional characters created by the people writing the issue, after all.) Again, this comes down to metafiction vs. normal fiction.

Originally posted by Enzeru
To me Marvels way is still the metafiction, if we ignore Starlins dumb "retcon".
Why would we ignore TOAA's depiction under Starlin, though?

I don't like the portrayal either(it's phucking stupid), but I still have to accept it for what it is. /shrug

Originally posted by CatL18
All powerful as long as writers and settings allow.

Why would the OAA be any different?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Why would the OAA be any different?

TOAA was confirmed to be not all powerful, wasn't he?

Originally posted by CatL18
TOAA was confirmed to be not all powerful, wasn't he?

Was not the Presence likewise shown as not all powerful?