Perpetua vs. Doctor Manhattan

It”s not just that the sixth dimension is a higher dimension in and of itself, but the fact that Mxy says the ability to access said dimension is restricted to all sans the most powerful few beings. The use of the phrase “the most powerful few beings” is different than “some of the most powerful beings”: the latter is much more ambiguous, but the former is specifically alluding to THE most powerful beings in existence. You could even rephrase it as:

Mxy: “The Sixth Dimension is closed off to all except the most powerful four beings.” Which is clearly Mxy saying the Brothers and Perpetua are the most powerful four beings in existence. 🙂

Regarding the World Forger punch, it was Superman’s actualization of the sixth dimension that allows him to perform the feat. Hence why the scan right before the punch talks about how now Superman is “more than what he can even imagine.” 🙂

Originally posted by MrMind
SOME of the most powerful beings, you are reading way too much into this

even if we disregard dc history, from the JL storyline alone we know

there are many super celestials just like perpetua out there creating multiverses

then there are the judges of the source

Mxy didn”t say some of the most powerful beings. He said the most powerful beings.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Mxy didn”t say some of the most powerful beings. He said the most powerful beings.

and yet we know for a fact there are other super celestials creating multiverses

we know for a fact judges of the source>perpetua, and her children are weaker than she is

so you are taking one statement too literally, how many times have we read a story where someone is being mentioned as "the most power" ? too many to count

Why are you assuming Mxy is talking about beings outside the DC Multiverse

@Supreme
You're editorializing Mxy's statements and trying to make them more explicit than they are. Again, Mxy does NOT state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself. Never once.

However, Mxy does explicitly state that Manhattan is more powerful than himself... And Superman confirms the same thing in the following issue...And Lex(who obviously has full working knowledge of Mxy) confirms than Manhattan > ALL in Doomsday Clock.

tl;dr
In the case of Perpetua vs. Mxy, you have to do a bunch of tinfoil hat-esque, dot-connecting to reach the conclusion that she *might* be more powerful than him... But even then the intent is still ambiguous because it wasn't clearly stated.

But in the case of Manhattan vs. Mxy, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever. The intent is made abundantly clear by way of multiple, explicit statements.

...So to get back to your original question: that's why the Manhattan statements are hyped and the Perpetua statements are not.

Why is it ambiguous? It is literally stringing together two simple statements Mxy made within a panel of each other:

Statement 1: Only the most powerful few beings can access the sixth dimension

Statement 2: I cannot access the sixth dimension, it is beyond my perception, the only four (few) beings that can are Perpetua and the Brothers

Conclusion: Perpetua and the Brothers are the most powerful few beings according to Mxy.

Originally posted by Galan007
@Supreme
You're editorializing Mxy's statements and trying to make them more explicit than they are. Again, Mxy does NOT state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself. Never once.

However, Mxy does explicitly state that Manhattan is more powerful than himself... And Superman confirms the same thing in the following issue...And Lex(who obviously has full working knowledge of Mxy) confirms than Manhattan > ALL in Doomsday Clock.

tl;dr
In the case of Perpetua vs. Mxy, you have to do a bunch of tinfoil hat-esque, dot-connecting to reach the conclusion that she *might* be more powerful than him... But even then the intent is still ambiguous because it wasn't clearly stated.

But in the case of Manhattan vs. Mxy, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever. The intent is made abundantly clear by way of multiple, explicit statements.

...So to get back to your original question: that's why the Manhattan statements are hyped and the Perpetua statements are not.

There is very little that is ambiguous about Mxy's comments on Perpetua on the Brothers Three at all.

Per his own words only the most powerful beings until recently could access it, and per his own words only those four were able to do so. None of those four beings included him, and all happen to be higher dimensional beings than him (no Galan, bringing up past events where he overcame higher dimensional beings is not evidence of how current Mxy compares with these recent characters).

In Snyder's cosmology all evidence points to the four being more powerful than Mxy.

It's shocking really how awesome in scope JLA stories are at the moment and the Avengers have gone Saturday morning cartoon with iterations of ghost rider.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Per his own words only the most powerful beings until recently could access it, and per his own words only those four were able to do so. None of those four beings included him, and all happen to be higher dimensional beings than him

Listen, I completely agree that only upper-echelon beings can access the 6th dimension. But the question is: does the ability to access that dimension automatically put you above Mxy by default? I certainly do not believe that to be the case, because as I said: there is no explicit indication of such... Especially when Mxy himself later said that it would take ALL of his abilities to create a portal to the 6th dimension, but then proceeded to whip it up in a single panel with a few "huffs".

And yes, I know Mxy said that him accessing the 6th dimension became possible do to the Source Wall being gone, but the Source Wall being gone also weakened Mxy tremendously, yet he STILL created a portal to the 6th dimension with seemingly very little effort, then proceeded to begin unimagining all of creation(in a very literal/meta sense), WHILE also fighting Bat-Mite + the JL in possession of fragments of the Totality... And even in this weakened state, Mxy was STILL so powerful that Brainiac(who had full knowledge of Perpetua and her sons) was freaking out at his "incalculable" and "limitless" power.

So maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Mxy might've been underselling his own abilities there?

Originally posted by NemeBro
(no Galan, bringing up past events where he overcame higher dimensional beings is not evidence of how current Mxy compares with these recent characters).

And yes, those showings ARE very much relevant to Mxy, because ALL of his showings are canon to him. This fact actually holds true now more than ever...

Originally posted by Galan007
He also didn't list the Source and its Agents/Judges(despite surely knowing of them.) Does that mean they cannot access the 6th dimension either, iyo?

Listen, I completely agree that only upper-echelon beings can access the 6th dimension. But the question is: does the ability to access that dimension automatically put you above Mxy by default? I certainly do not believe that to be the case, because as I said: there is no explicit indication of such... Especially when Mxy himself later said that it would take ALL of his abilities to create a portal to the 6th dimension, but then proceeded to whip it up in a single panel with a few "huffs".

And yes, I know Mxy said that him accessing the 6th dimension became possible do to the Source Wall being gone, but the Source Wall being gone also weakened Mxy tremendously, yet he STILL created a portal to the 6th dimension with seemingly very little effort, then proceeded to begin unimagining all of creation(in a very literal/meta sense), WHILE also fighting Bat-Mite + the JL in possession of fragments of the Totality.

So maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Mxy might've been underselling his own abilities there?

Yes Nem. What it tells us is that just because you're from a higher dimension than Mxy, doesn't mean you're automatically above him.

And yes, those showings ARE very much relevant to Mxy, because ALL of his showings are canon to him. This fact actually holds true now more than ever...

To be clear: I'm not saying that Perpetua and her sons *aren't* intended to be > Mxy. I'm saying that, imo, the evidence isn't explicit, and is open to interpretation based on your personal reading of Mxy's dialogue and the overall context of the story.

But where Manhattan is concerned, there is no ambiguity at all. The authorial intent is crystal clear because the statements/comparisons *are* direct and explicit.

Point being: that's why you'll get no argument from me that Manhattan > Mxy, but why I'm still hesitant to accept Perpetua(and co.) being above Mxy.

Originally posted by Galan007
To be clear: I'm not saying that Perpetua and her sons *aren't* intended to be > Mxy. I'm saying that, imo, the evidence isn't explicit, and is open to interpretation based on your personal reading of Mxy's dialogue and the overall context of the story.

But where Manhattan is concerned, there is no ambiguity at all. The authorial intent is crystal clear because the statements/comparisons *are* direct and explicit.

Point being: that's why you'll get no argument from me that Manhattan > Mxy, but why I'm still hesitant to accept Perpetua(and co.) being above Mxy.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
The higher the dimension a being naturally inhabits the greater it's power.

Originally posted by Galan007
There are quite a few examples of that not holding true in DC, though. I've posted them before, but that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: never once does Mxy outright state that Perpetua and/or her children are more powerful than himself.

Their ability to access the 6th dimension more freely than Mxy certainly doesn't mean they are more powerful than him by default... Mxy's dealt with higher-dimensional beings just fine in the past(like Ultimator and The A, for example.)

Where it happened?

Thanks Galan.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is very little that is ambiguous about Mxy's comments on Perpetua on the Brothers Three at all.

Per his own words only the most powerful beings until recently could access it, and per his own words only those four were able to do so. None of those four beings included him, and all happen to be higher dimensional beings than him (no Galan, bringing up past events where he overcame higher dimensional beings is not evidence of how current Mxy compares with these recent characters).

In Snyder's cosmology all evidence points to the four being more powerful than Mxy.

👆

I mean, I think Snyder has been pretty damn clear with where the Brothers Three and Perpetua stand. JLA issue 24 states:

The fifth dimension is imagination. A realm where all of our hopes and fears live. A realm that demands we look beyond what is probable to what is possible.

And in Snyder”s cosmology, the Brothers Three are literally stated to wield the power to “govern all things imaginable and unimaginable” via the dimensional superstructure. Synder also states the following:

They’re trying to almost find a place they can go to re-imagine what’s possible. So the Sixth Dimension is like the control room of the Multiverse. In dire times, the door becomes accessible to go to the emergency control room to figure out if there is a way of repairing what seems to be broken forever.

And hell, it”s literally the responsibility of the World Forger to “populate all that is and will ever be” and forge existence via the hopes/fears/possibilities of all living beings. The way I understand it, Synder”s idea is that while imagination is a realm of possibility, the World Forger (and his kin) ultimately determine what is possible and what is impossible in DC.

I disagree with you here. I also think it's possible, but I don't think the actual evidence is as clear as you seem to. Especially when mxy has feats that are far beyond what any of them have done- including Perpetua herself.

Lmao

So apparently Perpetua needs time to gather power to destroy a single universe in the Orrery. mmm

To be fair(even though I still think it's phucking stupid), Perpetua isn't quite at full power yet... Hopefully that last little micro-fraction she absorbs in order to unlock her *true* power will make all the difference. kinda