LOL. Gotta love how people protesting because their rights are being trampled on by an authoritarian governor are "idiots" but actual idiots protesting over stupid shit (pretty much everything all the leftists protest on a pretty constant basis) are "heroes" for standing up to the bad orange man!
Oh leftists... smh. ❌
Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
LOL. Gotta love how people protesting because their rights are being trampled on by an authoritarian governor are "idiots" but actual idiots protesting over stupid shit (pretty much everything all the leftists protest on a pretty constant basis) are "heroes" for standing up to the bad orange man!Oh leftists... smh. ❌
The only protests that are okay are whiny little b*tches too stupid to figure out if someone they don't like is speaking at their college they don't need to attend 🙂
Re: Nibedicus
My point isn’t a “middle ground argument”. It is a call to look at the facts objectively and to assign the blame where it really belongs.
This is kind of the point. You've used some wording that implies or argues Trump's evils are lesser or unimportant compared to the WHO/China. You have made an assertion. I countered the assertion with an argument. I provided evidence.
This is how debating works. Your argument has a superficial resemblance to a middle ground argument, but your underlying argument is that China and WHO are the real culprits. How do I know this? Because you've made it clear in your language use:
Let us all admit Trump was an idiot and could have reacted faster.
But let us also admit that many world leaders (including Trump) were misled by China and the WHO (the “panel of experts” for crises like this). The real culprits.
This language is crucial to how you are being perceived. It states that WHO/China are the ones to blame for the severity of the pandemic which Trump is now handling in the US. The use of 'real culprits' implies a level of blame higher than 'mismanaging' or 'slow reaction' or 'obfuscating bullshit'.
It is not about “who has the better argument”, that in is actually the problem here. Ppl refuse to admit to being wrong so they double down. Confirmation bias. To get to the truth, we need to eliminate tribalism and look at the facts and just the facts. I know this is practically impossible for most cases. But at least we should try.
Objectivity should be the end goal in a debate. It often isn't, because of bias, but it should be.
That being said, the 'better argument' has better evidence or logical form. This is Logic and Reasoning 101. If I say the dog is fat and someone else disagrees, and if I have a picture of that fatass dog, I have the better argument. The dog obesity partisan beliefs are there, but besides the point.
Because you can acknowledge opposing viewpoints and their bias and still examine the evidence if the evidence is sufficient enough or complete enough to justify one side over the other. If you feel the WHO/China are the real culprits (pertaining to the US outbreak or global outbreak), it stands to reason you can provide evidence.
If I were to argue that wrongdoing, on any level, doesn't remove responsibility form President Trump to act better or make him appear any less guilty, I'd be able to pretty easily prove it. Like this.
1. You like to say “inaction” and “wrongdoing” but use tweets and what he says during press conferences to attribute your blame. I feel you are focusing on the wrong things. Actions are: travel bans/restrictions, construction of medical facilities, implementation of quarantines/social distancing, acquisition of medical supplies/PPE and distribution thereof.
You know, I've spent two hours pouring over several timelines in regards to this, and found that the wikipedia timeline is the most complete and uses (naturally) the most sources to be verified. There is a lot of information to digest. More than I could do in a single setting. And I've uncovered some things I didn't know at all.
Link. It's lengthy.
Having done this, I can offer up the following observations:
1. Trump did not take the outbreak seriously, even when his medical advisors did, including the CDC. His January travel Ban to China was pretty much at the behest of Fauci and co. His administration was very much pro-China when it came to the outbreak, tweeting and publically thanking Uncle Xi for his role in dealing with the epidemic. This has only recently changed because Trump refuses to take blame or responsibility for anything negative his administration handles, COVID-19 or not.
2. China's containment measures were a mixed bag. They did some dumb bureaucratic shit. But at the same time, they seemed to be doing the opposite of what they did with SARS, with some transparency. Wuhan's actual lockdown did not go as intended, and some 5 million people got out. But in all fairness, China worked with international researchers, doctors, and officials to get the word out there and enacted some draconian quarantine measures. They retro-actively supported the early 'whistleblowers' via the courts and admitted that their earlier warnings should have been heeded.
3. The WHO was cautious at first, but by the end of January was pushing for a more serious approach. Unfortunately, it took almost two weeks longer to declare it a PHEIC than was necessary and Tedros' initial stance against hard travel bans looks bad in retrospect. Even if he was against causing undue fear early in the epidemic and didn't have all the information we now have, it was a bad move. That being said, the WHO put money and resources into giving information, helping less prepared smaller nations get started on preparation, and made information widely available. This information was taken up keenly by the right bodies in the USA, but unfortunately the chief executive officer dragged his feet and downplayed the issue until it was undeniable.
Even moreso: China’s ACTIONS
Check the Wiki timeline. China's actions are a lot to pour over. If you're saying they did nothing, that's clearly wrong. If you're saying they did bad things, that's also wrong, because they did a lot of things, some good, some bad, and some ineffective. You might want to be more specific if you intend to lay blame here.
More to the point, if you insist China is part of the 'real culprit' diode, an articulated argument would go miles.
and denial of the virus’ ability for animal-to-human transmissions,
Are you talking about cat transmission, or what? The idea that the virus had jumped from bats was, as far as I've read, believed early on.
attempts to silence whistleblowers who warned against it,
Local Wuhan police came down on health care workers claiming it was SARS very early on, something which the courts publically said was wrong in February. They pointed out that although the term SARS, as it was used by the healthcare workers was incorrect, their real concern and call for action was correct.
directions to their state controlled media to hide and downplay the virus
Well, this being Communist China, it's easy even without evidence to assume they've hidden something. That being said, of the evidence I've examined, China seems to have pushed local governments to be more open so as to not repeat the SARS outbreak fiasco. Wuhan local governor though could not act on his own initiative and I'm sure in other areas this happened as well. It's part of the package deal of being a government where everything is handed down from above and dissent is heavily discouraged. It was a mixed bag. I can't pretend like any other country would do that much better. As we're starting to see, most modern governments aren't quick enough to react to such a fast moving problem, and misinformation is a huge problem.
and the fact that they haven’t completly clamped down on their animal-cruelty markets (w/c may have been the source of SARS and ncov).
What is the relevance here?
THOSE are the type of actions (or inactions) that matter here. Not Trump’s troll-y tweets. I am, of course, willing to listen to some facts you would lay out in his lack of action in this area but you must forgive me if I (and the rest of the world) do not take his last tweets and press trolling as a serious argument here if we want to talk about who is really to blame.
Well, Trump doesn't have quite the mechanisms in place to order all the things you've stated China has done, because he's not (as he sadly realizes from time to time) emperor for life. Trump's actions are limited in scope to his personal views on the outbreak, how he handles the very real and proactive responses from his advisors, and how he handles his limited executive power. He has several times used his force of personality to influence his followers, and almost religiously followed in turn the conservative agenda of Fox News and OAN. I suppose it's a step up from Info Wars and Breitbart, but not much.
Now, the link I've provided above is enough reading for the rest of my lockdown, and as is I've spent over two hours now reading it, reviewing it, and trying to answer your argument here. It's actually shown me how China and other countries have reacted to this in a detail and nuance I didn't fully realize, and it's a clear case of why critical thinking is more important than regurgitating whatever the news says.
That being said, I'll ask: How are China and the WHO, collectively or separately, the 'real culprits'?
2. This isn’t about whataboutism but about putting the blame where it belongs.
Blame for what precisely? Maybe the issue here is you haven't substantiated what is required for blame to belong.
Real culprit perhaps needs some clarification.
culprit noun
cul·​prit | \ ˈkəl-prət , -ˌprit \
Definition of culprit
1: one accused of or charged with a crime
The culprit pleaded "not guilty."
2: one guilty of a crime or a fault
The culprit expressed remorse at his sentencing.
3: the source or cause of a problem
Lack of exercise and poor diet are the main culprits in heart disease.
So one of three possibilities exists. The first one is unproven; the WHO and China have not been charged with a crime, nor is there a crime that I'm aware of for what they supposedly have done. The second one is more vague; they could be argued to have guilt in fault for handling the crisis. This ignores details with simple blame, and is valueless without evidence. I would argue that their actions have been misrepresented here by others, since evidence of them attempting to help the situation clearly exists. The last one is so vague as to be worthless; by simply being the epicenter, China is the source of the problem, and the WHO cannot be argued to be either the source or cause, so it's irrelevant.
I can argue that scapegoating Tump IS the whattaboutism the WHO and China is doing to escape blame and they accomplish this thru the US leftist media (and the media does it because it aligns with their agenda to get their audience good and mad and hooked to their TVs). But that is not the point.
It's not even a solid point. It's conservative verbal diarrhea. It's two pints of Right Wing Lager away from claiming this is all a Chinese flu, designed to hurt the 2020 election.
This is about assigning proper blame where it belongs. If you look at my post it actually acknowledges blame on Trump’s stupidity, not to distract away from it. Aka. NOT whatabouttism.
Whataboutism doesn't absolve blame but detracts from it. You've again noted Trump's handling of the issue in a general way, so as it can be dismissed, and decided that CHINAWHO is the real enemy, without really providing strong evidence why. I might argue that going out of the way to blame the WHO is the least productive thing under the circumstances. You could argue China's obvious villainry in most situations, and I'd actually agree. But when it comes to the outbreak, most evidence points to them trying to do the right thing, even if they're failing it because of their goverrnmental structure, bad leadership, and mixed reaction to the early outbreak.
3. The problem with your timeline is that you NEED to chronologically align that same timeline with the WHO recommendations to world governments, the various governments’ reactions and THEN compare it to Trump’s -actions- not words. The purpose would be to establish global reaction/perception of the virus and what was considered the best course of action at the time. Then compare Trump’s actions.
Done. No point in throwing all my resources into retyping up an expansive list of every party's reactions and actions when I've linked a comprehensive article covering every minute detail.
If that's too much reading to verify the truth of the matter, here's two smaller ones:
Simply putting Trump’s dumb words in a timeline DOES give you some fun “gotchas” for Trump being dumb and saying dumb things (while some would say his words were just simply naive/foolish hopeful optimism or words to calm a scared population, depending on how you see it) but it does establish any kind of fault here if you’re going for the coronavirus response.
Addressed.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying you need to add onto the information and evidence you provided before you can make a convincing “blame argument” with regards to covid response (unless that is not what you are doin? I tend to tunnel vision on points so if I missed your point, please reiterate it. I apologize in advance if I made that mistake).
The point of an argument is to provide evidence for one's claims. You've asserted China and WHO are the real culprits. You've further indicated malfeasance on behalf of China as reasons why they are the real culprits. You've provided no argument against the WHO here at all. If anything, the level of 'being a real culprit' is not a measurable attributes, it might be you that needs to further clarify.
Anyway, here is my timeline:https://www.nationalreview.com/the-...ating-lies/amp/
These have clear timelines of China’s actual actions and what the WHO recommended to world leaders. Although it is cut a little short and does not move into after March.
I've provided my own sources above. Also, your source is a bit suspect:
National Review was founded in 1955 by William F. Buckley Jr. as a magazine of conservative opinion. The magazine has since defined the modern conservative movement and enjoys the broadest allegiance among American conservatives.
This is clearly a limited, partisan source for your argument. If you believe this to be the truth entirely, with all nuance, it might explain your viewpoints.
They are not just a reactionary body, they are the “panel of experts” the world and its leaders look to in instances like this. Again, you need to look at how the world governments reacted to the virus. DID they follow WHO recommendations OR did they scoff at it and went about with their business? Did Trump do so? Chonologize it. THAT would then be a convincing “blame argument”.
It's evident, given the evidence, that he ignored them and downplayed the threat until mid-March. See above timeline, and quotes.
I cannot speak for the US, I can howevever speak for my country as I have been glued to the screen since end of Jan for any news regarding ncov. I can say that the virus came late here. But can also say that on the same day that WHO continued to recommend against travel bans, my country contiuned to maintain that they were following WHO guidelines and that travel bans will not be put into place (making me want to punch my TV everytime they say it).A little over a week later, the first ncov cases started being reported on. Almost all the first cases were travelers coming from ncov hit areas. Travel bans were then put into place, too little too late. Now we lead SE Asia in number of cases, I cannot blame Trump for my country’s slow reaction and refusal to implement travel bans while the window was still open to stop the virus from coming. I can, however, very much so blame China and the WHO.
No, being from the Phillipines, Trump isn't your concern. That's evident.
If I shift focus on this discussion to your country and why it's valid to blame the WHO, I'd note that the WHO have stated very clearly travel bans need to be reassessed constantly, and that the situation develops rapidly and changes rapidly. They haven't seen "Keep it all open, lol".
The WHO issued their statement about travel bans here:
Feb. 4 - At a WHO briefing, Tedros urged that there be no travel bans. "We reiterate our call to all countries not to impose restrictions that unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade. Such restrictions can have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit. ... Where such measures have been implemented, we urge that they are short in duration, proportionate to the public health risks and are reconsidered regularly as the situation evolves."
At the time of this briefing, your country had less than three confirmed cases, and had only gotten testing underway after some delay. Your own government started banning affected area Chinese travel on January 30th. They issued a five day ban on Taiwan effective February 10th. Despite this, a partial lockdown of Manila wasn't issued until March 15th and the virus continued to spread unabated. A lack of early testing means we don't know how bad it was until it was too late. For some reason, there's no data on new infections in the Phillipines from February 6th to March 4th. That's a month's worth of absent data in a crucial period in your country's outbreak window, just gone.
But hey, at least your leader's getting more powers out of this. That's good news, right?
EDIT: I just saw a quoting error in the first post and can't edit it, because KMC likes to clear the text fields when you use the preview function.
Originally posted by Emmy Evangeline
This is clearly a highly debated topic. Ironically one of us could actually catch Covid-19
Good points.
Anywhere from 2 of us to half of us have already had it, depending on the stats out there.
I keep going back to mid Feb when I came down with some symptoms that lasted about 30 hours but I got over it quickly. I probably had the good ol' SARS-CoV-2.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Good points.Anywhere from 2 of us to half of us have already had it, depending on the stats out there.
I keep going back to mid Feb when I came down with some symptoms that lasted about 30 hours but I got over it quickly. I probably had the good ol' SARS-CoV-2.
It's okay, anyone that wants a test can get one.