Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorgo and I agreed on this point with our very time-consuming back and forth: it won't hurt to wear a mask (not a cloth mask) but it should not be mandated.
Originally posted by Robtard
Sorgo did? Cos he seems to say otherwise here regarding cloth masks. Your post and his response to you:edit: That's from page 241
Yes he did, not that his opinion matters because he's neither an expert nor correct in all of his positions:
Originally posted by Gehenna
I think everyone should be wearing masks. However, I do not believe it should be mandatory. A flawless RCT demonstrating the efficacy of mask-wearing would likewise not be satisfactory for me to prescribe this. I think it is solidly justified to castigate individuals for not wearing masks. The moral thing to do is to wear one.
Also, I was not correct in all of my positions, as well: N95s work.
Nice try with trying to twist my parenthetical to mean something it did not. I cannot wholesale agree that cloth masks work so I put a parenthetical aside just in case someone was misled to think cloth masks are on the same level as N95s. The parenthetical most certainly did not mean a direct quote or attribution to something he said. Try not to be so dishonest in how you represent conversations in the future.
The only reason I brought up his opinion is due to him arguing pro-masks and pro-lockdown so strongly. If even he did not agree with a formal mandate, then others may not be so quick to agree to them.
On to why I put that parenthetical into my comment:
This peer reviewed study that used high quality methodologies:
1. It was a Random Controlled Trial
2. They did not focus results on self-reported symptoms, they focused on lab confirmed ILIs.
3. During the study, they dropped one hospital due to study integrity possibly becoming compromised with that hospital due to an outbreak of rubella (this is a sign of an honest, high quality RCT).
4. Sample set was large across multiple locations.
5. They compared no masks (control) to cloth masks and surgical masks.
6. They included subjects from multiple disciplines, all over healthcare, not just emergency car wards. This is important if you are to draw conclusions from the population in the absence of public RCTs with clinical outcomes (real world results).
7. They controlled for proper mask wearing protocols including sanitization procedures. In the cloth mask arm, they also verified whether or not the masks were washed daily and they were washed in 23/25 days across the entire arm (meaning, almost every single day of the study, the masks were washed...casting doubt on speculated weaknesses of the poor performance of cloth masks).
8. It was truly controlled because they had the researchers perform checks on the subjects for mask wearing protocols (where applicable).
9. They wore their masks the entire shift (see #8).
10. They fully disclosed weaknesses and problems with their research.
11. Study results were truly blinded for lab results and testing (but not double blinded which is not really possible for this type of research).
12. They controlled for compliance.
13. They compared their laboratory confirmed ILIs with previous, high-quality, studies (this will help them detect anomalies and/or compre results to a baseline).
Here is their conclusion:
A post-hoc analysis adjusted for compliance and other potential confounders showed that the rate of ILI was significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (RR=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07), compared with the medical masks arm (table 4). There was no significant difference between the medical mask and control arms. Hand washing was significantly protective against laboratory-confirmed viral infection (RR=0.66, 95% CI 0.44 to 0.97).
Please note that when they controlled for compliance, the control (no mask) was comparable to the surgical mask group.
Here is the full text of the study:
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.full
Also of important note, they outright stated that if a healthcare work only has a cloth mask available for their shift during this COVID-19 pandemic, they should not work their shift.
Health workers are asking us if they should wear no mask at all if cloth masks are the only option. Our research does not condone health workers working unprotected. We recommend that health workers should not work during the COVID-19 pandemic without respiratory protection as a matter of work health and safety.
However, if they are forced to work, they recommended certain, non-science-based by no-nonsense, cloth mask protocols to reduce the likelihood of infection.
There have been a number of laboratory studies looking at the effectiveness of different types of cloth materials, single versus multiple layers and about the role that filters can play. However, none have been tested in a clinical trial for efficacy. If health workers choose to work using cloth masks, we suggest that they have at least two and cycle them, so that each one can be washed and dried after daily use. Sanitizer spray or UV disinfection boxes can be used to clean them during breaks in a single day. These are pragmatic, rather than evidence-based suggestions, given the situation.
Emphasis mine.
So to suggest people wear cloth masks for protection is not within the best science we have available. In an ideal world, a highly tested and high quality cloth face mask which is custom fitted to a person's face, could be recommend WITH strict sanitization protocols, to get some efficacy in the range of N95s. However, following the same strict N95 mask wearing protocols (where efficacy was determined where following strict protocols resulted in a significantly protective benefit against VRIs) with these imaginary high-quality cloth masks is extremely likely to not happen in the real world - the public is by and large not as conscientious as a HCW. Based on this, it's possible that people could be killed via cloth masks due to improper mask wearing protocols due to them being collections of illnesses including SARS-CoV-2. This is not a position I would be comfortable making if I were a policy maker.
Here's my recommendation: if you have a high quality laboratory confirmed case of COVID-19, simply quarantine for 14 days, no exceptions. If you are feeling ill: self quarantine until you can get confirmation of being COVID-19 free and even then, do not go out into public or visit relatives until you are clear of whatever illness you did have for at least 48 hours. If you must go out in public and you are a member of the vulnerable population (immuno-compromised, 2 or more comorbidities with COVID-19 mortality, or over 55), wear an N95 mask with extremely strict mask wearing protocols: DO NOT TOUCH YOUR FACE and socially distance. This would be my same recommendation every single cold and flu season.
Originally posted by Robtard👆
Trump emphasizes importance of masks during WH briefingTrump has reversed himself. The good thing is that his followers act like they're in a cult so many of them will go from staunch "I'm not wearing a mask, muh freedoms!" rants to "Wear a mask, it's patriotic!".
Originally posted by Robtard
Trump emphasizes importance of masks during WH briefingTrump has reversed himself. The good thing is that his followers act like they're in a cult so many of them will go from staunch "I'm not wearing a mask, muh freedoms!" rants to "Wear a mask, it's patriotic!".
To be fair to Trump, he was saying quite early on about covering face with anything like a scarf.
But yeah U.K. also changed their tune on this.
Newsweek published a scathing article about the politicization of HCQ+Az+Zinc.
Interesting read. And it is why I think politics have no business in science.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-states-leads-coronavirus-cases-cdc-documents-142600896.html
The US virus response has been among the worst in the world. It's embarrassing
Originally posted by Darth Thor
To be fair to Trump, he was saying quite early on about covering face with anything like a scarf.But yeah U.K. also changed their tune on this.
Fauci has changed his tune too so anyone running their mouth about trump doing it best also be calling out him too 👆
Just for fun though, if you were to guess if those who called out trump for it had also called out fauci for it...would you say they did or did not?
Should be noted that the US is still not in the top 5 for deaths per million.
India and Mexico are skyrocketing up the list. So is Iran.
Deaths per million is a much better metric than just raw deaths.
Sweden was #2, 2 months ago. Now they've dropped to #6 and will continue to drop. They are done dealing with COVID-19 for the most part. They should still continue to protect their elderly.
Sweden's critics are being swiftly shutup as countries like India, Hong Kong, and Philippines - who implemented strict measures - are now going through a second wave that is greater than the first wave. Especially India and Mexico. It is highly unlikely that India and Philippines are capturing all COVID-19 deaths.
France has quickly dropped out of the top and they just aren't seeing many new deaths. France might be done. Germany is seeing an uptick in new cases which should result in deaths in the next week or two as we hit the 21 day death cycle.