Originally posted by Zenwolf
This is the same guy who didn't know Palps had a son...or was it Rey being his granddaughter?
He didnt know that Palps son wasnt actually his son, but his clone.
Which in itself is a contradiction to what we were told in the film. But Canon likes to get Really Technical when it comes to apparent contradictions.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Galan, that's not accurate.Essence transfer was Plagueis's discovery and his attempt to transfer his essence into Sidious when Sidious killed him is noted to have failed.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, that's what Zamp was asking. Mf was hoping that Sidious was basically a meat suit for Bane.
Alas.
This seems to really water down Plagueis's abilities as well. Instead of midichlorian manipulation (seeming imortality & biokinesis on the level of Panacea from Worm) we just get some kind of slow-moving cloning-jutsu. It is objectively weaker (short term) than the Essence Transfer used by the Bane/Zannah hybrid that emerges from the finale of Dynasty of Evil.
Palpatine must (slowly!) engineer a receptive vessel, which involves grappling with all of the problems inherent to cloning, generally, and cloning Force users, specifically. By contrast, any powerful Force user seems to be a valid target for Bane's essence transfer, which needs no dedicated preparation afaik.
Originally posted by Zamp
Alas.This seems to really water down Plagueis's abilities as well. Instead of midichlorian manipulation (seeming imortality & biokinesis on the level of Panacea from Worm) we just get some kind of slow-moving cloning-jutsu. It is objectively weaker (short term) than the Essence Transfer used by the Bane/Zannah hybrid that emerges from the finale of Dynasty of Evil.
Palpatine must (slowly!) engineer a receptive vessel, which involves grappling with all of the problems inherent to cloning, generally, and cloning Force users, specifically. By contrast, any powerful Force user seems to be a valid target for Bane's essence transfer, which needs no dedicated preparation afaik.
Sheev/Plagueis’s essence transfer can work on powerful Force users as well, but in order for them to possess a person, that person must strike them down in anger.
Originally posted by Eli VantoWell, Yoda seemed to know as a spirit, at least.
So strange to me, because didn't it seem like Yoda had read the ancient texts at some point? "Page turners they were not."So if the healing ability was learned from the texts, then you would think Yoda should have also known it. 😕
And it's made clear that spirits gain a sort of all-encompassing awareness when they ascend to that level of being. IOW, Yoda likely did not have that knowledge while he was alive.... and if he did, he's a dick.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sheev/Plagueis’s essence transfer can work on powerful Force users as well, but in order for them to possess a person, that person must strike them down in anger.
That is directly contradicted by the entire plot of TRoS.
It would have been laughably easy for Sidious to provoke Kylo Ren into striking him down in anger. Even inert bulkheads were able to provoke Kylo into striking them down in anger. Moreover, Kylo is clearly positioned by the narrative as being just as powerful as Rey (or very nearly so). Claiming the bloodline of the Skywalkers is just as practical as, and arguably more cruel than, overwriting his only heir.
Instead, Sidious launches a byzantine plot to deliver the scion of his own bloodline to his doorstep. That strikes me as clear evidence of a genetic restriction that did not apply to Bane/Zannah's method.
Originally posted by Darthadi
From what i understand Sheev initially planed to use Kylo as his new body and wanted Rey death. Only after he learned about Kylo's redemption he decided to use Rey. This is why he said that the princess of Alderaan ruined his plans.
Kylo's interview with Sidious at the beginning of the movie was well before Kylo's redemption. Why didn't he do it then?
I mentioned this before, but logically speaking, if Palpatine were capable of body-hopping into any Force user who struck him down in anger, then he wouldn't have been stuck in a rotting clone corpse for decades, waiting for the heir of his bloodline to surface... This is presumably the same reason why Plagueis didn't try to hop into Palpatine's body upon his death. It has to be the 'right' vessel, or the transfer doesn't work.
That's why the cultists kept trying to make clones of Palpatine to be the vessel, that's why he didn't just have Kylo kill him and transfer his essence into Kylo's body, that's why he specifically wanted Rey, etc.
Originally posted by Galan007
I mentioned this before, but logically speaking, if Palpatine were capable of body-hopping into any Force user who struck him down in anger, then he wouldn't have been stuck in a rotting clone corpse for decades, waiting for the heir of his bloodline to surface... This is presumably the same reason why Plagueis didn't try to hop into Palpatine's body upon his death. It has to be the 'right' vessel, or the transfer doesn't work.
No, the novel notes Plagueis did attempt the transfer but didn't act quickly enough in his moment of death, unlike Sidious:
That's why the cultists kept trying to make clones of Palpatine to be the vessel, that's why he didn't just have Kylo kill him and transfer his essence into Kylo's body, that's why he specifically wanted Rey, etc.
It has to be a vessel strong enough to contain his power and someone who would lash out in anger. The novel nor the script suggest a genetic component. In fact, the novel suggests Sidious was trying to possess Luke during the Battle of Endor:
Originally posted by Zamp
That is directly contradicted by the entire plot of TRoS.
Yes, that's a thing TROS does.
For example, like Sidious ordering Kylo repeatedly to kill Rey, only to claim at the film's end that his intention was always for her to survive and wind up on Exegol. That contradicts the plot as well.
So too does the time Sidious tells Allegiant General Pryde that Leia inspiring Kylo to renounce the dark side "has disrupted [his] plans." Why does he care?
It would have been laughably easy for Sidious to provoke Kylo Ren into striking him down in anger. Even inert bulkheads were able to provoke Kylo into striking them down in anger. Moreover, Kylo is clearly positioned by the narrative as being just as powerful as Rey (or very nearly so). Claiming the bloodline of the Skywalkers is just as practical as, and arguably more cruel than, overwriting his only heir.Instead, Sidious launches a byzantine plot to deliver the scion of his own bloodline to his doorstep. That strikes me as clear evidence of a genetic restriction that did not apply to Bane/Zannah's method.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of genetic pre-condition to the essence transfer, but for every implication the movie or book offer to support it, there's an implication to the contrary:
We know Plagueis discovered the technique and Sidious pilfered it from him. We know Plagueis attempted to use on Sidious when Sidious killed him but didn't act fast enough in the moment. Sidious insinuates that he was attempting to goad Luke into striking him down so he could body hop into Luke.
So as to why he just didn't goad Kylo into striking him down in anger at the film's prologue, who knows? It may very well be that there is a genetic component or it may be Sheev pulling the same stunt he did with Dooku and Anakin throughout the Clone Wars: pit two viable candidates against one another and select the victor to serve as his apprenticemeatsuit.
Originally posted by The_TempestSidious evidently had an [albeit imperfect] clone on Exegol, waiting to receive his essence. When he was hurling down the reactor shaft, he had time to jettison his essence into said clone. The novel states that his body was dead/empty long before it reached the bottom... Which is odd given the massive energy discharge after his body hit the bottom, along with the fact that you can hear him screaming the entire way down, but I digress.
No, the novel notes Plagueis did attempt the transfer but didn't act quickly enough in his moment of death, unlike Sidious:
Per RotS, Palpatine killed Plagueis in his sleep. Not sure why that would effect one's ability to transfer their essence, unless Plagueis didn't have any vessels prepared like Palpatine did. Dunno.
Originally posted by The_TempestRight, so if he could hop into anyone who struck him down in anger, why wouldn't he just let Kylo(who was fully prepared to kill him at the beginning of the film) just strike him down and be done with it?
It has to be a vessel strong enough to contain his power and someone who would lash out in anger. The novel nor the script suggest a genetic component. In fact, the novel suggests Sidious was trying to possess Luke during the Battle of Endor:
Why waste decades trying to make a clone of himself that was suitable? Why wait for his non-Force sensitive clone "son" to conceive a child of the same bloodline naturally, and specifically wait for her abilities to mature so that he could use her as a vessel?
It seems likely to me that there was a genetic component that was needed in order for the transfer to be successful. If not, then there are a LOT of plot-holes here...
Plagueis attempted to use on Sidious when Sidious killed him but didn't act fast enough in the moment
Your quote specifies only that Plaguies acted in the moment of his murder, not that the target of an essence transfer was Sidious himself.
In Legacy of Evil, Andeddu's Essence transfer converts the entire body into dark side energy "at the speed of thought" and initiates a battle of wills with the target.
Plaguies's technique is described exclusively as biokinesis aimed at midi-chlorians. He narrates this method of death used for a politician in his book. Sidious describes this kind of biological manipulation as Plaguies's only form of defense attempted against the Force choke that ultimately killed the Muun. Moreover, Sidious indicates that he has learned at least some degree of mastery over this technique, and muses on using biokinesis to save his former master. No mention is made of Plagueis using a technique aimed at Sidious (or at anyone else).
Unfortunately, nothing like an essence transfer is described in the Plagueis book. This means that the description from the novel version of TRoS must be a retcon. However, based on the information in LoE & the screenshots you've shared here, Bane's version of the transfer works faster and in more different situations than the one attempted by Sidious.
citations:
Here's the essence transfer from the bane/zannah fight:
Legacy of EvilWith his foe unarmed and helpless at his feet Bane brought his arm down for the coup de grace, only to have it intercepted mid-swing by one of the dark side tendrils. It wrapped itself around the elbow. Skin, muscle, sinew and bone dissolved instantaneously, severing the limb.
His disembodied forearm and fist tumbled harmlessly to the ground, his lightsaber flicking off as the hilt slid from his suddenly nerveless fingers. The Dark Lord didn't scream this time; the pain was so intense it left him mute as he collapsed to the ground.
Everything went black. Blind and alone, he felt the void closing in. In desperation he reached out with his left hand, clutching Zannah's wrist as she lay on the ground beside him. With his last act, he summoned all his remaining power and invoked the ritual of essence transfer.
Working at the speed of thought, his mind tapped into the currents of the Force, seizing on the power of the dark side, spinning, shaping, and twisting it into the intricate patterns he had ripped from Andeddu's Holocron.
The cold darkness swallowing him up vanished, replaced by a searing burst of crimson light as the power of the ritual was unleashed. Bane was aware of his flesh being utterly consumed by the unimaginable heat, reduced to ashes in a thousandth of a second. But he was no longer a part of his own body. His spirit had discarded it like an old shell in favor of a new one.
Bane was suddenly fully aware of his physical surroundings. He could see with Zannah's eyes, he could hear with her ears. He could feel the intense heat of the ritual's crimson glow through her skin. But Zannah was still there, too. She sensed his assault; he could feel her terror and confusion as if they were his own. And when she screamed in horror he screamed with her.
The black tendrils vanished as her concentration was shattered, disappearing like smoke on the wind. Instinctively, she fought to repel the invader. Bane could feel her pushing him away, rejecting him, trying to drive him out even as he relentlessly tried to force his way in and snuff out her existence.
It became a battle of wills, their two identities locked together inside Zannah's mind, grappling for possession of her body. They teetered on the precipice of the void, Bane seeking to obliterate all trace of her identity while she sought to cast him down into the blackness.
For a moment they seemed to be evenly matched, neither gaining nor giving ground. And then suddenly it was over.
Here's the description from Plagueis, where the Muun kills someone from the senate:
Plagueis
Let me explain what is happening to you," Plaguies said. "The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you."
Here's of Sidious's murder of his master:
Plagueis
Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?[...]
Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis." He held out his thumb and forefinger close together. "Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you."
Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.
"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life ... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them."
Hatred stained Sidious's eyes.
"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side."