The Rise of Skywalker (novelization)

Originally posted by Galan007
The Dyad between Rey and Ben was also in full effect while they were battling the guards on Exegol(as if passing the lightsaber wasn't enough evidence)...

"Rey drew on Ben's strength, and he drew on hers, and just like before, they were also separate but also together, Rey battling the guards, and Ben battling the Knights.

"Behind you," she warned, and he brought up his saber to block his back, whirled, impaled Trudgen, flipped over his falling body, spun, and did the same to Ushar."

So would that include Ben fighting the KoR?

That said, it seems thus far we don't have much individually. Well...ok Ren we have a bit more, but Rey it seems like all her best feats are when she is around/in the vicinity of Ben.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think he survived, no. The novel makes it clear that Plagueis also knew how to transfer his essence, but he didn't have a proper vessel prepared to receive his essence when Palpatine killed him... So the same thing should be the case with Palpatine here. He had no adequate vessels to hop into.

Why wouldn't Palpatine have a bunch of back-up vessels secreted throughout the galaxy? Seems like a very obvious and massive oversight on his part. Sure, they may not be exactly in top condition but it's certainly better than death. He certainly has the budget to afford to do so.

Also, why didn't Plagueis posses Palpatine when he died? The implication is that if Rey gave into the darkside and killed her grandpa he could posses her... But for some reason Plagueis couldn't do it to Palps? This shit is just so much nonsense. Also kinda sucks that this deconfirms the theory that the Palaptine in the movies isn't actually "Sheev" but some ancient Sith (Bane perhaps) who has slowly cultivated dark power over the centuries by possessing his apprentices and Palpatine is merely his newest body.

Originally posted by ares834
Why wouldn't Palpatine have a bunch of back-up vessels secreted throughout the galaxy? Seems like a very obvious and massive oversight on his part. Sure, they may not be exactly in top condition but it's certainly better than death. He certainly has the budget to afford to do so.

"Palpatine was trapped in a broken, dying form. The heretics of the Sith Eternal toiled, splicing genes, bolstering tissue, creating unnatural abominations in the hope that one of these strandcasts would succeed and become a worthy receptacle. The heretics would do anything, risk anything, sacrifice anything, to create a cradle for their god-consciousness. Nothing worked, but their efforts were not entirely in vain.

One genetic strandcast lived. Thrived, even. A not-quite-identical clone. His "son". But he was a useless, powerless failure. Palpatine could not bear to look upon such disappointing ordinariness. The boy's only worth would lay in continuing the bloodline through more natural methods.

And it was through that eventual union, unexpected as it was, that Rey was born. The perfect vessel. Strong enough to contain all the power of the Sith. His granddaughter."

Evidently the rotting corpse of Palpatine we saw initially is as close as the Sith cultists could get to cloning/engineering "a cradle for their god-consciousness".

Originally posted by ares834
Also, why didn't Plagueis posses Palpatine when he died? The implication is that if Rey gave into the darkside and killed her grandpa he could posses her... But for some reason Plagueis couldn't do it to Palps? This shit is just so much nonsense. Also kinda sucks that this deconfirms the theory that the Palaptine in the movies isn't actually "Sheev" but some ancient Sith (Bane perhaps) who has slowly cultivated dark power over the centuries by possessing his apprentices and Palpatine is merely his newest body.

Palpatine's mind/power was definitely the dominate essence... He was just being bolstered by the power of all the Sith before him(like Rey was with the Jedi.) I do wish it explained *how* Palpatine obtained his 'Omni-Sith' power, though. Seems like a monumentally important plot-point to just ignore...

My understanding is that the old sith spirits live within him, but the one who kills the previous master still maintains control of their own body and consciousness, and just carries the spirits and powers of the previous sith from before. So when Palpatine killed Plagueis, he gained the power of plagueis and all the sith spirits he carried, without actually being “possessed”

The spirits might corrupt the individual a bit, but do not actually take control of their consciousness

Originally posted by Galan007
The implication is that it was exceedingly difficult to create a suitable vessel to house Palpatine's essence

Evidently the rotting corpse of Palpatine we saw initially is as close as the Sith cultists could get to cloning/engineering "a cradle for their god-consciousness".

Sure. So why not have more? Like I said, it's not perfect but better than death and he has plenty of resources to fund it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Maybe it was a bloodline thing? After all, if Palpatine could have simply hopped into any dark side user, he would've had Vader kill him years ago... Or even have Kylo kill him at the beginning of the film.

Except, as you posted earlier, it's suggested that he wanted to posses Luke in RotJ. So bloodline doesn't seem to be a necessary component. As for Vader, he was crippled and Rey likely was a better option for a vessel than Kylo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine's mind/power was definitely the dominate essence...

That's made clear now. However, with only the movie, it leaves open the possibility that the Sidious we've seen in all the films is not actually Sheev but rather some other Sith who possessed him (prior to Ep 1).

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. So why not have more? Like I said, it's not perfect but better than death and he has plenty of resources to fund it.

Except, as you posted earlier, it's suggested that he wanted to posses Luke in RotJ. So bloodline doesn't seem to be a necessary component. As for Vader, he was crippled and Rey likely was a better option for a vessel than Kylo.

That's made clear now. However, with only the movie, it leaves open the possibility that the Sidious we've seen in all the films is not actually Sheev but rather some other Sith who possessed him (prior to Ep 1).

Tbf, that quote is open to interpretation. Logically speaking, if Palpatine were capable of body-hopping into any dark sider who struck him down, he wouldn't have been stuck in a rotting clone corpse for decades, waiting specifically for Rey... This is presumably the same reason why Plagueis didn't try to hop into Palpatine's body upon his death. It has to be the 'right' vessel, or the transfer doesn't work.

I didn't interpret it that way in the film(to me it seemed like Palpatine was just controlling the power of all the previous Sith), but it's cleared up now either way. Palpatine obtained the power of all the Sith before him(somehow), and Rey obtained the power of all the Jedi to counter him... Balance and all that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because the implication is that making any sort of suitable clone vessel to contain Palpatine's essence was nearly impossible -- the body he was in at the start of the film was evidently a one-off. In the quote above it is stated that the Sith cultists only managed to create one other "genetic strandcast" who lived, and that was Palpatine's son/Rey's father -- but he wasn't Force-sensitive, thus could not be used as a vessel. This part of the plot, at least, isn't like DE, where Palpatine could stockpile an endless number of clone bodies and hop into them at will... Now *why* the cultists were unable to create clone bodies that were at least identical to the original vessel, is something that was not addressed. It just seemed like the 'science' behind all this was still very much imperfect, unreliable, and random(which makes sense, given that Palpatine is the first Sith we know of in canon who has transcended death like this, so it's not like the cultists had other cases to go by.)

So they, conveniently, were able to make one and only one clone that "worked".

😕

Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf, that quote is open to interpretation. Logically speaking, if Palpatine were capable of body-hopping into any dark sider who struck him down, he wouldn't have been stuck in a rotting clone corpse for decades, waiting specifically for Rey... This is presumably the same reason why Plagueis didn't try to hop into Palpatine's body upon his death. It has to be the 'right' vessel, or the transfer doesn't work.

Like I said, it's nonsense. As for the quote, re-reading it, that interpretation is quite clearly the correct one.

DE did this so much better so many years ago...

Originally posted by Galan007
I didn't interpret it that way in the film(to me it seemed like Palpatine was just controlling the power of all the previous Sith), but it's cleared up now either way. Palpatine obtained the power of all the Sith before him(somehow), and Rey obtained the power of all the Jedi to counter him... Balance and all that.

Sure, and that's what I thought as well. I simply liked that it left the possibility open.

Originally posted by ares834
So they, conveniently, were able to make one and only one clone that "worked".

😕

As for the quote, re-reading it, that interpretation is quite clearly the correct one.

DE did this so much better so many years ago...

Maybe, maybe not. But as mentioned, if you assume that Palpatine could have hopped into any random dark side user who killed him, then even MORE plot holes open up, and things become a LOT more illogical. After reading this novel, I got the impression that Palpatine's vessel had to be directly linked to Palpatine himself, otherwise the transfer wouldn't be successful. That's why the cultists kept trying to make clones of him to be the vessel, that's why he didn't just have Kylo kill him and transfer his essence into Kylo's body, that's why he specifically wanted Rey, etc.

I agree that DE did it better. I'm just trying to piece things together at this point, lol.

can you give me a Y/N answer:

Was Sidious (& by extension all of the Rule of Two Sith) an unbroken gestalt consciousness originating with Bane & Zannah, perpetuated by generations of essence transfer?

That's basically my last remaining question about the star wars universe at this point

Yeah, Palpatine in Rise is literally all the Sith.

Originally posted by Galan007
Despite repeated attempts over the decades, the cultists only created one other vessel that lived -- and that was Rey's non-Force sensitive father.

Well 2 others including Snoke right?

Originally posted by Zamp
can you give me a Y/N answer:

[b]Was Sidious (& by extension all of the Rule of Two Sith) an unbroken gestalt consciousness originating with Bane & Zannah, perpetuated by generations of essence transfer?

That's basically my last remaining question about the star wars universe at this point [/B]

Bane/Zannah weren't mentioned, of course, but Palpatine was channeling the power of all the Sith before him -- the antithesis to Rey, who was channeling the power of all the Jedi before her.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well 2 others including Snoke right?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes.

Bane/Zannah weren't mentioned, of course, but Palpatine was channeling the power of all the Sith before him -- the antithesis to Rey, who was channeling the power of all the Jedi before her.

Galan, that's not accurate.

Essence transfer was Plagueis's discovery and his attempt to transfer his essence into Sidious when Sidious killed him is noted to have failed.

To clarify...

I'm not saying that each era of Sith continuously transferred their essences into the newer generation, all the way until Palpatine's era. So if that was the question, then no, that was not stated to be the case, and I apologize for the miscommunication.

What I'm saying is that after the events of RotJ and his initial 'death', Palpatine found a way to control and harness the power/essences of every Sith before him. So far as we know, he is the only Sith who did this.

@Gideon...

What do you make of the Palpatine/vessel discussion that ares and I were having? What is your interpretation?

Originally posted by Galan007
To clarify...

I'm not saying that each era of Sith continuously transferred their essences into the newer generation, all the way until Palpatine's era. So if that was the question, then no, that was not stated to be the case, and I apologize for the miscommunication.

Yeah, that's what Zamp was asking. Mf was hoping that Sidious was basically a meat suit for Bane.

What I'm saying is that after the events of RotJ and his initial 'death', Palpatine found a way to control and harness the power/essences of every Sith before him. So far as we know, he is the only Sith who did this.

Perhaps. The text does note that he drew on all the dark power of the Force and all the Sith who came before to rob Reylo of their Dyad juice.

But Matt Martin of the Story Group has said repeatedly that, unlike Rey and the past Jedi, Sheev's relationship with dead Sith may just be metaphor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, that's what Zamp was asking. Mf was hoping that Sidious was basically a meat suit for Bane.

Yeah, the implication is that Plagueis discovered the ability, and taught it to Palpatine. No indication that any of the previous Sith were capable of doing so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps. The text does note that he drew on all the dark power of the Force and all the Sith who came before to rob Reylo of their Dyad juice.

But Matt Martin of the Story Group has said repeatedly that, unlike Rey and the past Jedi, Sheev's relationship with dead Sith may just be metaphor.

That being said, the implication in the film and novel(imo) is that he had indeed become the 'Omni-Sith', and was a conduit for the power of all the Sith in galactic history. It also makes sense on the flip side, given that Rey had to harness the power of every Jedi in galactic history to contend with/overcome him.

Yet all that Sith power and the best he could do with his Lighting is only disable, not flat out destroy ships?...

Still a gargantuan feat, considering both the sheer scale of his lightning barrage and the ridiculously precise manner he was using it(ie. only targeting Rebellion ships that were scattered among the tens of thousands of Star Destroyers hovering above.)