Luke vs. Sidious

Originally posted by Galan007
Not a fair comparison, though. Canon Vader has had two full comic book series', multiple mini-series', a new ongoing series, and several showings in novels to flesh out his power in canon. Conversely, RotJ-era Luke has only been featured in like 1 comic since 2014.

It's not about being fair, its about consistency. Vader doing the stuff he did doesn't directly contradict anything in the movies. And It's hardly unfair to show ROTJ showings for ROTJ Luke 😬

Besides pre-ROTJ Luke has appeared in plenty of comics. Plenty.

Originally posted by Galan007
What feats/showings does RotJ Luke have that discredit him being equal to Vader, though?

Well there's the direct comparison with the Rancor. And that kind of showing was pretty consistent for ROTJ Luke. Remember him struggling against scout troopers on the speeder bikes?

Now as soon as he got his saber out he wasted them. But before then... I get almost all Jedi would struggle in that situation. But if you insist on comparing him to Vader, then Lukes control/mastery over TK just hasn't been that impressive up to that point. Not even in the same ball park.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even the RotJ novelization paints them as equals, iirc, and the source I mentioned just cements it as a canon fact(whether you agree or not, canon is canon.)

ROTJ Novelisation isn't canon though. Otherwise i'd be perfectly fine with using quotes to "cement" canon. But not using them to override feats and showings. I mean a story group that can't even keep up with canon updates in movie novelisations certainly can't be trusted to keep up with every quote in every source book.

Originally posted by Galan007
Look how much Rey evolved in the 1 year between TFA and RoS. Luke had 3 years to evolve between ESB and RotJ.

Just saying...

Yeah I get that Rey screwed shit up massively. But even including her in the conversation, we know she had a dyad with Kylo.

And again, just think about the logic of it all. Let's ignore that Luke inherited his power from Anakin, and by all accounts shouldn't have greater innate power than him. Let's also ignore that ROTS Anakin had massively superior training up to that point... (Canon Vader is supposedly =/> TCW/Rots Anakin in an all out).

But the sheer logic of being a rival to Vader in both sabers and the force at any point is just completely nonsensical. Because Vader is mostly machine, his saber prowess isn't going to be precisely proportional to his TK Mastery.

And it just never happens anyway. With the exception of the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight(and we know they trained together and were equally skilled from years of sparring together and mirroring each other),who has ever been equal in both Sabers and the Force?

Anakin was giving Dooku hell throughout the Clone Wars, but certainly wasn't his equal in mastery of the force. Same with Mace vs Sidious.

Yoda and Sidious seemed pretty equal in the Force, but Yoda was apparently the superior duelist.

So it would just be a very odd thing to happen, especially when competing against a half machine Sith. Like would only happen for mega plot convenience, and that's it.

Be fair, Thor. Vader's own displays with the Force in the OT aren't anything special compared to the comics/games/newer movies. He choked some people and threw some shit at Luke in ESB. That's just a limitation of the special effects back then. There has been a slow but steady power creep since the 80s and it works retroactively. It's unfair to use Vader's feats from newer material and compare them to what Luke did in a 1983 movie. Hell, if we go by purely by on-screen feats Kylo and Rey would one-shot Vader with their TK.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Be fair, Thor. Vader's own displays with the Force in the OT aren't anything special compared to the comics/games/newer movies. He choked some people and threw some shit at Luke in ESB. That's just a limitation of the special effects back then. There has been a slow but steady power creep since the 80s and it works retroactively. It's unfair to use Vader's feats from newer material and compare them to what Luke did in a 1983 movie. Hell, if we go by purely by on-screen feats Kylo and Rey would one-shot Vader with their TK.

I am being fair. Luke has plenty of showings in the new canon. Like shaking the star destroyer. But thats raw power, not controlled, and not mastered.

However Vaders comic showings are not contradictory to his movie counterpart. Luke running from the rancor and grappling with scout troopers does contradict the idea of him being able to do the same stuff Disney Vader can.

Also be reasonable in adding up how on Earth Luke could be a complete and total match for Vader when Anakin with 10+ years of training was at best able to compete against Count Dooku (TCW Movie), but still definitely not his equal in the Force.

Also lets be reasonable in not giving someone Vaders feats based on a single quote from a source book, by a Story Group that really doesnt take canon that seriously. At least not to that extent.

Originally posted by Scizard
1)Pretty much everyone in ROTJ accepts that Luke is ready to fight Vader.

2)Even if you want to say that Vader was conflicted it doesn't mean he wasn't trying to defend himself and while Luke was rage amped he wasn't even able to do that, let alone get an attack in.

3)Luke gaining that much power in a year doesn't make that much sense, sure, but he still has it, and it would be bias to straight up ignore the evidence, that so far has little contradictions.

1) Do they? Where did anyone say Luke is capable of killing Vader as of that moment? He had to face Vader to pass his trials, and he did not necessarily require a mentor anymore, and he was told he should kill Vader at some point.... But those are all different things and there’s a lot of theres a lot of room for technicalities in there.

2) Luke was clearly able to compete against Vader in a Saber fight. Much like TCW Movie Anakin could compete against Dooku in Sabers. But that didnt make him Dookus equal. Not yet. And not sure he was ever match for Dooku in TK. Not until his Vader days at least. And of course outside of Mortis.

3) And the proof that a Padawan has that much power (mastery) already is a source book quote? A quote which doesnt evenmention TK specifically or mastery. Nah not buying it.

Again (for those who care) Lucas makes it plenty clear in the ROTJ audio commentary that Luke hasnt had the training to beat Vader yet.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's not about being fair, its about consistency. Vader doing the stuff he did doesn't directly contradict anything in the movies. And It's hardly unfair to show ROTJ showings for ROTJ Luke 😬

Besides pre-ROTJ Luke has appeared in plenty of comics. Plenty.

The point is that Vader's power/skill in canon has been fleshed out abundantly across dozens of appearances in comics, novels, and TV shows. Conversely, RotJ Luke has only appeared in one comic since 2014, so he really has no supplementary showings to weigh against Vader's. Almost everything we've seen from canon Luke up to now has been from the ANH and ESB eras, which obviously has no bearing on RotJ Luke... Though pre-ESB Luke, with virtually no training whatsoever, did shake a Star Destroyer with a single TK attack, but that's neither here nor there.

Regardless, you can't just say: "Vader preformed [insert feat here] in the comics, therefore he is above Luke!" It's a faulty comparison... Especially when a canon source explicitly states they were intended to be equal(in both power/skill) during RotJ, and no contradictory material really exists.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well there's the direct comparison with the Rancor. And that kind of showing was pretty consistent for ROTJ Luke. Remember him struggling against scout troopers on the speeder bikes?

Now as soon as he got his saber out he wasted them. But before then... I get almost all Jedi would struggle in that situation. But if you insist on comparing him to Vader, then Lukes control/mastery over TK just hasn't been that impressive up to that point. Not even in the same ball park.

But as mentioned, the fact that Luke(or Vader, for that matter) haven't displayed massive Force feats on-screen doesn't preclude the notion that they were still intended to be equal by the time of RotJ, per a canon source. You may not like or agree with this, but again: canon is canon. There are certainly things I wish didn't happen in canon as well *cough*all of the ST*cough* -- but my utter disdain for the ST films has no relevance in a discussion about canonicity. Same thing applies to your opinion of the quote I cited.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
ROTJ Novelisation isn't canon though. Otherwise i'd be perfectly fine with using quotes to "cement" canon. But not using them to override feats and showings. I mean a story group that can't even keep up with canon updates in movie novelisations certainly can't be trusted to keep up with every quote in every source book.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah I get that Rey screwed shit up massively. But even including her in the conversation, we know she had a dyad with Kylo.

Luke's personal development is obviously insane as well -- we've seen how much he has improved between ANH and ESB in the comics, and he obviously will improve even moreso in the time between ESB and RotJ.

He was certainly a natural prodigy by virtue of being the direct offspring of Anakin Skywalker, just like Rey was a natural prodigy by virtue of being the direct offspring of Sheev(well, his clone at least) -- so exponential growth does make sense from the "some bloodlines are vastly more attuned with the Force than others" perspective.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I am being fair. Luke has plenty of showings in the new canon. Like shaking the star destroyer. But thats raw power, not controlled, and not mastered.

However Vaders comic showings are not contradictory to his movie counterpart. Luke running from the rancor and grappling with scout troopers does contradict the idea of him being able to do the same stuff Disney Vader can.

Also be reasonable in adding up how on Earth Luke could be a complete and total match for Vader when Anakin with 10+ years of training was at best able to compete against Count Dooku (TCW Movie), but still definitely not his equal in the Force.

Also lets be reasonable in not giving someone Vaders feats based on a single quote from a source book, by a Story Group that really doesnt take canon that seriously. At least not to that extent.

Luke barely has any showings in the new canon. All we know is that he can shake a SD pre-ESB, bring down Star Destroyers with his TK a year after ROTJ and that he has an incredibly vast collection of Jedi knowledge. It's a unfair to compare him to Vader with all of his comics and cartoon appearances.

I beg to differ. Lucas always said that OT Vader was a crippled cyborg, who lost most of his potential in the Force. I certainly don't believe that Lucas ever intended that Vader could go around casually crushing AT-ATs with the Force. That one man army is the fan version of Vader. Movie Vader sends his stormtroopers to do the fighitng. I'm not complaining about it, it's cool, but it's not what Lucas intended.

The rancor argument is pointless. Luke intentionally went in there unarmed as part of a trap. If he just wrecked the place with the Force that all goes south doesn't it?

Nobody is giving him Vader's feats, but the fact is that canon material says Vader and Luke are equals in ROTJ. And given that Luke can apparently bring down Star Destroyers just a year later that doesn't seem that unlikely. Does it make sense that Luke's power grew faster than Anakin's? Nope, but then you have Rey, who can TK starships with a year of training from someone who wasn't even fully a Jedi. Speaking of Leia, she can beat Luke in sparring and survive in the vacuum of space with her minimal training. That's Disney for you.

Originally posted by Galan007
My point is that even the original RotJ novelization, released back in 1983, painted them as at least near-equals. IOW, this is not some new concept that Disney canon devised all on its own... It has been a thing for almost 40 years.

It was stated in the RotJ comic adaption (1983):
https://i.imgur.com/muv0OFg.jpg
"This is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim... And if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him."

Beware the Sith (2012) also stated they were "equally strong in the Force."

So again, the canon quote I cited merely cements a fact that has been in circulation for the better part of 40 years. It's nothing new.

Everyone in the movie acts like Luke is Vader's peer, including Vader himself. Yoda and Obi-Wan wouldn't have sent Luke to kill Vader if they didn't think Luke could do it. Dunno why this is an issue now.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

1) Do they? Where did anyone say Luke is capable of killing Vader as of that moment? He had to face Vader to pass his trials, and he did not necessarily require a mentor anymore, and he was told he should kill Vader at some point.... But those are all different things and there’s a lot of theres a lot of room for technicalities in there.

2) Luke was clearly able to compete against Vader in a Saber fight. Much like TCW Movie Anakin could compete against Dooku in Sabers. But that didnt make him Dookus equal. Not yet. And not sure he was ever match for Dooku in TK. Not until his Vader days at least. And of course outside of Mortis.

3) And the proof that a Padawan has that much power (mastery) already is a source book quote? A quote which doesnt evenmention TK specifically or mastery. Nah not buying it.

1) I didn't say anyone said Luke was capable of outright defeating Vader, but they all expected him to confront Vader or implied that Luke needed to defeat Vader. If they didn't think Luke was atleast *near* in skill to Vader then they wouldn't push Luke to confront him, since that would just be a death sentence.

2) This is different. Luke completely dominates Vader and I don't see how this relates? The point was Vader was trying to defend himself and he could not do this while Luke was raged amped for very long. Vader wasn't hoping Luke would just kill him on that day. You can say he was conflicted but he was absolutely not looking to lose. Beware of the Dark Side suggests that Vader is fearing just how powerful Luke is during this moment.

3) Don't understand what you're arguing here, I'm defending the quote made by the sourcebook.

"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."

So you're saying because the quote doesn't mention telekenis it's invalidated? You can't just pick and choose to ignore a quote w/o a valid reason.

You mentioned that Luke should be able to deal with a rancor easily, but I can think of in-universe reasoning why Luke wouldn't. For example, the stress of being dropped into a pit with a giant monster without being mentally prepared for it or having experience regarding such is enough to hinder one's connection to the force, since you need focus to use it. Others have also mentioned different reasons.

The out of universe reason is simply that
1. They didn't have the special effects.
2. Vader recieved a relative boost in power and the movie is outdated.

I'm sure Luke will eventually recieve force feats that are on the level of Vader. Vader just has way more material.