Sidious vs Vader (Details)
In the new canon it seems quite clear that Disney has given Vader a significant 'buff' we see he's regarded as "the most powerful sith lord", the best red lightsaber duelist and his armour now makes him far stronger than weaker. But for the story this doesn't entirely make sense.
What argument would you make for (ROTS-ROTJ) Palpatine > Vader?
Originally posted by ScizardThe most I would ever argue is that Vader's TK(and possibly saber skill) might approach Palpatine's level. Aside from that, Palpatine is superior across the board by virtue of possessing a far greater depth of power/knowledge than Vader ever displayed.
What argument would you make for (ROTS-ROTJ) Palpatine > Vader?
^
Because he's canonicaly superior, yes. I've never said otherwise. But if we consider feats only, then Maul choked Obi-Wan once, catch him by TK another time and Force push him at least once.
Vader has a great TK feats as long as he's not fighting a strong enemy. To be honest, Sidious display of TK during his duel with Savage and Maul is above all of Vader's best feats against all of Force-users combined.
Dooku has superior feats in-battle to Vader as well. By far. And I'm not saying that Dooku is more powerful.
Originally posted by McP
^
Because he's canonicaly superior, yes. I've never said otherwise. But if we consider feats only, then Maul choked Obi-Wan once, catch him by TK another time and Force push him at least once.Vader has a great TK feats as long as he's not fighting a strong enemy. To be honest, Sidious display of TK during his duel with Savage and Maul is above all of Vader's best feats against all of Force-users combined.
Dooku has superior feats in-battle to Vader as well. By far. And I'm not saying that Dooku is more powerful.
Well Maul always did that to Obi-Wan circumstancially (aside from TPM).
But yeah I suppose Dooku TKing Obi-Wan is still better, but just pointing out what Vader did to Ahsoka is above anything Maul has done to someone that good in a fair 1 v 1.
As for Dooku, I honestly think Vader would be a nightmare opponent for him. Between his physical might and ridiculous raw TK, I dont see Dooku doing well. But yes I agree chances of Vader force choking Dooku mid Saber fight isnt very high.
^
I'm not that sure. Vader overhelmed Ahsoka in a saber duel to a degree, when she was barely holding her own. Then he managed to Force push her. It's rather easy to imagine, that he coulnd't just Force push her. Just as she needed to find opening at the beginning of the fight and Force pushed him in counter to his missed saber slash.
Just like Dooku; he needed to find that opening In Kenobi's guard, he overhelmed him and Anakin in a saber lock, thrown them off balance, which was enough to find that opening.
Maul find opening in Kenobi's guard as well, but it was easier as Kenobi had to split his attention to Maul and Savage.
As for Vader TK: he did to Ezra something similar that Dooku and Yoda did to Ventress. Yoda TKed her, disarmed her without any difficulty. She as well could be on youngling level, that would change nothing.
Sidious did something similar to Maul and Savage, but he did that rather by suprise. Wasn't that clear as Yoda's showing, but well, Savage and especially Maul are above Ventress in the Force overall.
Dooku was capable to subdue Ventress by TK hold as well, but short before he overhelmed her in saber duel to the level when she barely was holding her own.
Anyway, Vader did that to Ezra. To Ezra. And he Force pushed Ahsoka after overhelming her. Not TK hold or choke her.
Still, compering Vader's showings on neutral ocasions and his hype to his showings against Force users on decent level, he is just... medicore.
^ Yes but his Force push on Ahsoka sent her flying. Whereas Ahsokas force push on Vader just forced him back a little, but he stood his ground. Thats the difference.
But yeah it usually happens after gaining an advantage in a Saber fight. An instantaneous ragdoll like Sidious did to Maul and Savage is rare. And I admit Vader hasnt proven himself on that level yet. But given his feats, he should be close to that level.
Originally posted by Galan007
The most I would ever argue is that Vader's TK(and possibly saber skill) might approach Palpatine's level. Aside from that, Palpatine is superior across the board by virtue of possessing a far greater depth of power/knowledge than Vader ever displayed.
Well TK and sabers have always been Vader's bread and butter.
Though honestly I don't get why some see this Vader as different from before, maybe it's just because more people are able to read the newer stuff as it comes out and is more mainstream popular?
But eh, there is still the issue that Vader wanted Luke to join him and said he could destroy the Emperor and would complete his training and with their combined strength would bring order to the galaxy.
@Darth Thor
Well, at that point i wouldn't say that it was that impressive. Yes, he has shown a greater raw power in TK to her, but was it that strong? Could be about two meters as well, but she was at the edge and she fell from that. Perhaps that is what makes it look far worse. Anyway, Ahsoka was barely defending herself and Vader had a clear TK strike, while Ahsoka just found a very small opening. Vader was in better position, but mostly due to being superior combatant overall and better fencer.
Still, Maul's Force push against Kenobi was far more impressvie in my opinion.
And, basing on a "in-battle" feats, I really don't see Vader to be anywhere close to Palpatine. And to be clear: I'm not saying that Vader ins't close to him. His feats "in-battle" just doesn't suggest that at all. Only that.
Originally posted by ZenwolfI think it's more that canon hasn't really emphasized a huge difference between Palpatine and Vader in those departments, nor have their been any references to the suit hindering Vader's power/skill at all. If anything, he improved in the years between RotS and RotJ.
Well TK and sabers have always been Vader's bread and butter.Though honestly I don't get why some see this Vader as different from before, maybe it's just because more people are able to read the newer stuff as it comes out and is more mainstream popular?
But eh, there is still the issue that Vader wanted Luke to join him and said he could destroy the Emperor and would complete his training and with their combined strength would bring order to the galaxy.
Oh yeah, Palpatine is still much more powerful than Vader overall. Raw TK and sabers are the only areas where you might argue that they would be close, but Sheev should still have the advantage.
Nothing about the suit hindering him, but his injuries obviously still hindered his potential, otherwise he would have been much more powerful than the Emperor by the OT.
That said, even in terms of actualised power, I doubt Vader > Peak ROTS Anakin. But his TK control and mastery has clearly vastly improved.
Originally posted by Darth ThorVader's potential was still there -- his injuries didn't affect that.
Nothing about the suit hindering him, but his injuries obviously still hindered his potential, otherwise he would have been much more powerful than the Emperor by the OT.
However, it was implied that Palpatine was hoarding knowledge for himself, instead of sharing it with Vader to help him reach his potential.
Originally posted by Galan007
Vader's potential was still there -- his injuries didn't affect that.
They did according to Lucas. Ive not seen Disney outright contradict that yet. Im sure the databank says somewhere that Palpatine knew that as soon as he was injured but will have it find it.
But suffice to say, Vader should have surpassed both Yoda and Palpatine. But doesnt seem like he was ever truly on or with either of them.