Sidious vs Vader (Details)

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No Anakin was considerably above Dooku. The source which says Dooku expended energy on defeating Kenobi is the novelisation which also makes it clear that Dooku replenished his reserves, and that blocking every strike against Anakin took more energy than defeating Obi-Wan.

There is a noticeable gap between Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda. Yes. But like I said Anakin was already considerably stronger than Dooku. So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement for the Chosen One with an unrivalled midichlorian count over a whopping 20 years.

I'd say there's no reason to believe Vader is significantly > Peak Anakin for the reasons already stated above.

Ben Kenobi's clearly more powerful than before, but you are upscaling them for the sake of your Vader argument only, and not being very realistic IMO.

I mean just how powerful do you suppose Ahsoka and Ben Kenobi are? Ashoka would have to be Dooku level for Vader to just be on Peak Anakin's level.

So the best Vader could be is Peak Anakin level Imho.

Vader was going for the kill against Ben. Vader never passed his defences, though seemed to be slowly gaining ground on him.

Hence Ben needs to be better than Dooku just to scale Vader up to Peak Anakin level. We gotta be realistic in how far we are scaling up both Ahsoka and Ben just for the sake of scaling Vader up. Peak Anakin level is the best he could realistically be IMO.

Palpatine rag dolled both Maul and Opress with ridiculous ease. And vader wasn't even rag dolling Ahsoka 😬

There's no reason to believe he's stronger. Like I have already pointed out, he certainly has better control of his Force powers, so can act effectively on a more consistent basis, but that doesn't make him stronger than peak Anakin in a duel.

Vader doesn't have a showing better than trouncing Dooku.

Honestly I think peak Anakin maybe a bit much. But there's no way he's above that.

"Anakin is considerably above Dooku"
-Like I mentioned proof? Dooku expending energy on Anakin does not mean he is considerably more powerful and aren't you the one who always denies the novelizations being canon?

"So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement"
-You have no idea how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Vader by this point. Same goes with Palpatine, his knowledge and likely power grew over those two decades.

Yes Vader was going for the kill, but he was specifically being cautious, that is why he gains ground slowly. It's still a one-sided fight.

I'm not arguing Ben/Ahsoka's levels I'm simply saying you can't downplay Vader. We don't know how strong they grew in the force. It's completely realistic that two prodigies gained enough power to resist Vader's TK with 20 years of experience.

You're downplaying Vader simply because he hasn't fought anyone stronger than who Anakin's fought but you're treating them as separate beings. Like Vader suddenly lost his memory after his accident. To me, it sounds like your logic is just because Vader hasn't fought an opponent who's above Dooku level he's not Anakin level when they're the same person.

If we follow a similar logic ROTJ Palpatine and ignore the fact that Vader didn't try to kill Palpatine. ROTJ Palpatine must be way worse than ROTS Palpatine because OT Palpatine doesn't have any feats. Or AOTC Kenobi is superior to TPM Palpatine because TPM Palpatine doesn't have any feats.

I also don't see any proof he ragdolled Maul with ease. Maul is kneeling/on the floor to him in two instances. Vader was able to ragdoll Sidious in similar circumstances, that doesn't mean he can ragdoll Sidious with ease. Sidious held Maul for all of about 2 seconds in the first instance and wasn't doing enough damage to warrant Maul trying to use the force to defend himself anyway and there's an argument to be made that it's harder to defend yourself once you're already being levitated and slammed into a wall. Just because Sidious butchered Maul with ease does not mean he can freely use the force on Maul. One the first case Maul is shocked as it comes out of nowhere. Second case Maul basically gets baited, and is completely wide open. We see force users employ force attacks when characters leave themselves wide open. This is a near equivalent to Vader pushing Ahsoka. The third time he is out of breath and already on the floor.

There are multiple reasons for Vader to be stronger:
1. He did not deteriorate therefore he is at least peak Anakin.
2. His suit 'amplified' his powers therefore he is at least above peak Anakin.
3. He has two decades more experience and time to hone his skills.
4. He is physically stronger than Anakin.
5. Sources say his potential grew.
6. Sources say he is a better duelist than Palpatine, at least technically.
7. He has far more durability.
8. His force power evidently grew. This means he can last longer in a fight, amplify his physicals more or employ telekinesis on objects to hinder an opponent. Anakin has not shown the ability to do this effectively.

Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier.

The only way you can downplay Vader is by saying he has less mobility, but Galan has already mentioned that he centered his fighting style to overcome this issue and you cannot say that this one point > all the other 8 points that I made.

Originally posted by Scizard
"Anakin is considerably above Dooku"
-Like I mentioned proof? Dooku expending energy on Anakin does not mean he is considerably more powerful and aren't you the one who always denies the novelizations being canon?

You brought up expending energy to defeat Kenobi which came from the novel. Without the novel it's just speculation that cost him considerable energy.

Proof is the databank which states Anakin grew vastly in power from S5 TCW to ROTS. We already saw they were near equals in S4 TCW.

Originally posted by Scizard
"So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement"
-You have no idea how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Vader by this point. Same goes with Palpatine, his knowledge and likely power grew over those two decades.

We know Vader NEEDS Luke to overthrow Palpatine.

Originally posted by Scizard
Yes Vader was going for the kill, but he was specifically being cautious, that is why he gains ground slowly. It's still a one-sided fight.

Didn't seem very one sided tbh. I presume you will provide your source how Vader was being extra cautious, hence defeating Ben extra slowly?

Originally posted by Scizard
I'm not arguing Ben/Ahsoka's levels I'm simply saying you can't downplay Vader. We don't know how strong they grew in the force. It's completely realistic that two prodigies gained enough power to resist Vader's TK with 20 years of experience.

You are arguing Ben/Ahsoka's level by default.

It's only logical that if Vader is =/> Peak Anakin, then both Ahsoka and Ben would need to be >/= ROTS Dooku.

We do have an idea of Ahsoka's level given her confrontation with Maul and Inquisitors. So lets not act like she's a complete unknown at this point.

Originally posted by Scizard
You're downplaying Vader simply because he hasn't fought anyone stronger than who Anakin's fought but you're treating them as separate beings. Like Vader suddenly lost his memory after his accident. To me, it sounds like your logic is just because Vader hasn't fought an opponent who's above Dooku level he's not Anakin level when they're the same person.

I'm not downplaying Vader at all. He's simply limited by plot. There's no reason to presume he's above Anakin for no reason except he claims his anger has made him stronger in LOTS.

I'm asking for evidence that he's > Peak Anakin for which I've not been convinced at all. As he simply doesn't have a combat feat on par with overpowering Dooku the way Peak Anakin did. We also know from the plot of the OT that Vader was still < Palpatine.

So again, for what reason should I give Vader so much credit to actually place him above Peak Anakin?

The way I see it, he's likely still above Dooku level, but still below Yoda/Palptine level. So where's the improvement exactly? In use of TK? Sure. As an all out combatant at his best? You've not convinced me.

Originally posted by Scizard
If we follow a similar logic ROTJ Palpatine and ignore the fact that Vader didn't try to kill Palpatine. ROTJ Palpatine must be way worse than ROTS Palpatine because OT Palpatine doesn't have any feats. Or AOTC Kenobi is superior to TPM Palpatine because TPM Palpatine doesn't have any feats.

There's no reason to presume ROTJ Palpatine is above or below ROTS Palpatine in combat. Though we know he's been gathering artifacts/knowledge e.t.c.

Originally posted by Scizard
I also don't see any proof he ragdolled Maul with ease. Maul is kneeling/on the floor to him in two instances. Vader was able to ragdoll Sidious in similar circumstances, that doesn't mean he can ragdoll Sidious with ease. Sidious held Maul for all of about 2 seconds in the first instance and wasn't doing enough damage to warrant Maul trying to use the force to defend himself anyway and there's an argument to be made that it's harder to defend yourself once you're already being levitated and slammed into a wall. Just because Sidious butchered Maul with ease does not mean he can freely use the force on Maul. One the first case Maul is shocked as it comes out of nowhere. Second case Maul basically gets baited, and is completely wide open. We see force users employ force attacks when characters leave themselves wide open. This is a near equivalent to Vader pushing Ahsoka. The third time he is out of breath and already on the floor.

Sidious practically had both Maul and Opress frozen from the get go. And he was laughing while doing it. The only greater show of dominance I've seen is Yoda over Ventress. Except Maul and Opress combined are obviously >>>> Ventress.

Sidious also force choked Count Dooku over a hologram.

So why are we assuming Vader is his near equal again?

Originally posted by Scizard
There are multiple reasons for Vader to be stronger:
1. He did not deteriorate therefore he is at least peak Anakin.
2. His suit 'amplified' his powers therefore he is at least above peak Anakin.
3. He has two decades more experience and time to hone his skills.
4. He is physically stronger than Anakin.
5. Sources say his potential grew.
6. Sources say he is a better duelist than Palpatine, at least technically.
7. He has far more durability.
8. His force power evidently grew. This means he can last longer in a fight, amplify his physicals more or employ telekinesis on objects to hinder an opponent. Anakin has not shown the ability to do this effectively.

There's nothing concrete there. You are basically saying he logically should be > Anakin. But he is not, because that's not how Lucas designed the OT to be. Even when Disney retcon that, they are still beholden to the plot of the OT.

By all showings and feats, he's definitely Anakin's superior in the use of TK and his consistent control of the Force.

But there's nothing to place him above Peak Anakin in combat.

Oh and by the way Anakin's still got the greatest force feat as well on Mortis. But he wasn't consistent in his use of the Force, which is why I say Vader had better mastery and consistent use of his TK. Didn't seem to help much against any notable opponents though for some reason.

Originally posted by Scizard
Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier.

No that's wrong. Because he's fought both Ben and Ahsoka. You can argue special effects for Ben (but Disney used that fight to determine how Rebels Ben fights Maul, so they are beholden to that fight being complete canon). But Ahsoka was recent and in animated form. He force pushed her at one point, and had her potentially defeated. But it was hardly a rag doll.

Originally posted by Scizard
The only way you can downplay Vader is by saying he has less mobility, but Galan has already mentioned that he centered his fighting style to overcome this issue and you cannot say that this one point > all the other 8 points that I made.

Except I'm not even attempting to downplay Vader. At all.

Jeez saying someone at their best is on par with Peak Anakin is not a downplay. The only people above that are Luke, Palpatine and Yoda. Aside from that only Windu might be on par with that level. How on Earth is that downplaying? He's still in both his Anakin and Vader incarnations > both of Sidious's previous apprentices, probably > than any previous Sith and greater than all other Jedi.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his powers at all. To the contrary, the injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever before.
Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his lightsaber skill. He simply had to create/adopt a new style in order to overcome his bulkier stature.
Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his overall potential with the Force.
Fact: We have no reason to believe that Vader's power/skill did anything but increase in the years between RotS and RotJ.

...So why are you trying to cap OT Vader at RotS Anakin level? 😬

Seems like you're using his fight with Ahsoka as the primary measuring stick here, in lieu of logic to the contrary. We all know that Filoni isn't going to have anyone(I don't care how powerful they are) just waltz up and casually ragdoll/own his pet character Ahsoka... Not even Palpatine himself was able to do that:
https://i.imgur.com/AWzMFWK.jpg

As for Vader's fight with Ben: From A Certain Point of View makes it clear that it was ultimately a one-sided stomp in Vader's favor. Ben(the same guy who owned Maul in three strikes) could defend against Vader for a brief period, but he had absolutely no chance of winning.

The argument that Vader peaked in ROTS ignores every single thing we know about him in new canon.

I also think there are sources that state Vader was Sidious's most powerful apprentice, which automatically scales him above Dooku.

Indeed:

And though you could rightly argue that "light years" isn't exactly quantifiable, the obvious intent of the dialogue is that Vader was FAR above Dooku and Maul.

Wasn't talking about the novel. Of course it requires energy to use the force.

Obviously not that much vastly in power considering he gets pushed back by Dooku in S6 and kicked while Kenobi is on Dooku. Anakin is also getting visibly outskilled in ROTS. Dooku rising both Anakin and Kenobis blade and then kicking them. I'll agree to Anakin>Dooku but not that he is vastly or considerably more powerful than Dooku considering his fights at the moment. My mind is open to change on this.

And so what? He's likely still a very similar level to Palpatine. That's growth.

Pretty sure Galan has the source.

I'm not arguing Ahsoka/Kenobi > Dooku at all. Anakin wasn't able to just ragdoll Dooku either. So I think there's a misunderstanding. I'm saying that Vader not being able to ragdoll Ahsoka/Kenobi doesn't mean his force powers are weaker than you think.

If you're referring to sabers then, there's an argument to be made for Ahsoka/Kenobi to be near Dooku, but they're both struggling against Vader. You can visibly see it for Ahsoka and as soon as they re-engage you can see Vader is far more aggressive and Ahsoka would've died had she not been saved by Ezra.

This is what you don't understand. It does not matter than Vader does not have a feat that is superior to overpowering Dooku because he has not deterriated. It's like arguing can the Anakin who was on Coruscant during ROTS do the same as Invisible Hand Anakin and the suit enhances Vader.

"Vader is peak Anakin an enhanced suit and two decades more experience.
here's nothing concrete there. You are basically saying he logically should be > Anakin. But he is not, because that's not how Lucas designed the OT to be. Even when Disney retcon that, they are still beholden to the plot of the OT."

You're literally just saying here. Logically Vader is stronger but I'll choose to ignore that because Lucas says so. Lucas doesn't own Star Wars anymore. Disney can make Vader as powerful as they like.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. I'm not saying Vader is LIGHT YEARS beyond Anakin. Just that he is peak Anakin but better. All the sources point to this.

"Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier."

"No that's wrong."
What's wrong about it? I'm not arguing ragdolling here. I'm saying that no one Vader can fight is CONFIRMED above Dooku which means Vader CANNOT have a better showing than Anakin because there is no one to give him a better showing.

Palpatine had 20 years to practice the dark side so it's logical that atleast his force augmentation has improved, however I will agree that there's nothing absolutely concerete on this matter that I'm aware of.

And yes there's plenty concrete in my 1-8 points. Most of them are facts and Mortis is literally a one off situation so I hope you are not using that in your defence.

You are trying to argue that Vader is not superior to Anakin. He is superior to Anakin. Having a suit that enhances and having more force power is enough to say Vader > Anakin. Let alone all the wank that say he is above Sidious "the most powerful sith lord", best red lightsaber duelist, slamming Sidious into a wall....

If you're saying Vader is an equal to Anakin. Then you're implying that Vader did not grow at all in two decades and yes you tend to go off by what is logical within reason and when it does not contradict other stuff.

Regarding Maul like I said, Maul was not expecting to be flung against a wall. He was not defending himself. The same applies to Dooku. If you want to go by that logic then Vader > Sidious because Vader was able to do the same thing.

Vader is way beyond Anakin in Disney canon. How is that even a question? 😕

Originally posted by Galan007
We all know that Filoni isn't going to have anyone(I don't care how powerful they are) just waltz up and casually ragdoll/own his pet character Ahsoka... Not even Palpatine himself was able to do that:
https://i.imgur.com/AWzMFWK.jpg

.

Which is so very annoying..

It's ridiculous how much Filoni wanks her.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not seeing it in Palpatine's bio. You have a link?

https://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

Scroll down to where Vader is upright on the operating table for the quote.

Cool, thanks. 👆

Perhaps Vader was 'weaker' right off the operating table in RotS(which is what that quote seems to be referencing), as he basically woke up in a new body that he was obviously not used to... Though that also may not be the case, depending on how you interpret the opening scene from Soule's series:
https://i.imgur.com/BdZRqrt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FMv6cNg.jpg

...Along with the fact that Vader fought Kirak Infil'a(who was stated to be more powerful than any Jedi he had ever fought in the solicits for issue #3) just a few days after the events of RotS.

But either way, in Lords of the Sith it was explained that when Vader was forced to wear the armor, he initially hated it and viewed it as foreign. After growing accustomed to his armor, however, Vader's power and overall connection to the Force became stronger than ever:

Once, he'd found the armor hateful, foreign, but now he knew better. He realized that he'd always been fated to wear it, just as the Jedi had always been fated to betray their principles. He'd always been fated to face Obi-Wan and fail on Mustafar--and in failing, learn.

The armor separated him from the galaxy, from everyone, made him singular, freed him from the needs of the flesh, the concerns of the body that once had plagued him, and allowed him to focus solely on his relationship to the Force.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

I guess it's also worth mentioning that during an interview with Charles Soule and Giuseppe Camuncoli regarding the events of Darth Vader v2 #3(set just a few days after RotS), Giuseppe stated this about Vader:

"[Vader's] armor is just new to him, so of course you have to make him feel a little less confident then he is when he's in his older days [...] But somehow he is such a great fighter. He is a being of great power. He was a great Jedi before, and he's become maybe the most powerful Sith around."

Granted that's the artist talking, but he obviously worked very closely with Soule on the plots/scripts, and Soule didn't opt to correct him in the interview... So take that for what it's worth. /shrug

Vader's potential being curbed by the suit was something that never made sense to me. I get what Lucas was trying to do, but it ties the Force to the mundane to much and seems to really contradict Yoda's "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" speech. And, yeah, like I said earlier it just doesn't make any sense.

That Vader's issues were mental rather than physical was always a better idea.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Vader is way beyond Anakin in Disney canon. How is that even a question? 😕

Way beyond?

His fights against Ben and Ahsoka say differently Imo.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which is so very annoying..

To be fair, both her and Ezra did run from Palpatine. She didnt run from Vader.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
https://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

Scroll down to where Vader is upright on the operating table for the quote.

Ah so its still there. Weaker than before, but his hatred/anger still gives him great power.

Originally posted by ares834
Vader's potential being curbed by the suit was something that never made sense to me. I get what Lucas was trying to do, but it ties the Force to the mundane to much and seems to really contradict Yoda's "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" speech. And, yeah, like I said earlier it just doesn't make any sense.

That Vader's issues were mental rather than physical was always a better idea.

Point is though something must have been restricting him not to have overthrown the Emperor 20 years post ROTS.

Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed:

And though you could rightly argue that "light years" isn't exactly quantifiable, the obvious intent of the dialogue is that Vader was FAR above Dooku and Maul.

So was Peak Anakin tbh.

But I digress that quote should put him at Peak Anakin level. Still not convinced hes progressed much beyond that level though. Except in consistency of his high showings and control.

He's still beyond Peak Anakin even if it isn't by a significant amount.

But why wouldn't Vader be beyond Anakin by a significant amount? Because of his fights with Ahsoka and Ben? Please.

As mentioned, Ahsoka is Filoni's pet character. No one is going to casually ragdoll her under Filoni(not even Palpatine did) -- so that's a moot argument as far as I'm concerned. And tbh, I'm not sure why you'd even try and faux-lowball Vader by cherry-picking this one showing..? Especially when Vader beat her in both 'rounds' of their fight. /shrug

As for Ben- he three-pieced Maul, yet the novel From a Certain Point of View makes it abundantly clear that he had absolutely NO chance of beating Vader:

Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.

"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.

My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.

Again:
-Vader didn't lose any of his potential.
-His injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever.
-His lightsaber skill was just as good, if not better, than ever before(a canon source puts him above Palpatine in sabers, for what it's worth.)
-He had 20+ years of near-constant battle to further hone his abilities.
-He was massively(ie. "light years"😉 beyond the likes of Dooku.
-And a few sources imply that he was in Palpatine's tier from the get-go.

...Given all of the above, why on earth would we assume that Vader plateaued at RotS-level power/skill? 😕

Significant isn't the right word. Not sure how I'd describe Vader's superiority to Anakin. Probably something on the lines of if Anakin was the top of A tier, Vader would be around the bottom of S Tier.

Again whats with the accusations of lowballing Vader? How is placing him somewhere in between Dooku and Palpatine lowballing exactly? Id argue you guys are lowballing just how powerful Peak Anakin already was, with his utter dominance over Dooku. Not to mention him once overpowering The Son and Daughter combined ffs.

-The databank has made it clear Palpatine KNEW Vader would be weaker after his injuries. He wasnt talking about needing recovery time after coming off the operating table.

-Ahsoka did run from Palpatine. Her and Ezra combined could not hold Palpatine off. And I dont recall pretending Vader didnt beat her.

- Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor. This was according to Lucas himself, because Vader possibly lost the potential to do so. Nothing in the new canon has changed that. The plot of the OT has not been retconned.

- Exactly where was this room for improvement when Peak Anakin was already beyond Maul and Dooku? There was even a quote from Lucas implying he was already Palpatines equal.

Vader improved in his use of TK. And in consistent performances. So that is an improvement, and power up of sorts. But aside from that hes not levelled up one from Anakins peak performances. Nothing shows that anywhere.

Let's come at this from a different angle:

How powerful was peak Anakin?

Definintely not Mortakin level.

While the intention behind the RotS fight was that Anakin was significantly and distinctly more powerful than Dooku, since no other source supports that in Canon, Disney could be trying to spin the fight to mean that Dooku was tired after fighting Obi-Wan, and his loss to Anakin was circumstancial.

And since so many authors and sources seem to insist (despite logic and Lucas' original intention) that Vader has improved significantly, it's reasonable to assume that if he's >Dooku now, he wasn't before.

In other words, Anakin (at his peak) could potentially lose to Dooku or Windu, whereas Vader would always win.