Who are Antifa? A very interesting and balanced article.

Started by Artol6 pages

Originally posted by Scribble
I'm just going to keep saying it until you understand it: using violence to stifle political dissent is authoritarianism. Antifa are authoritarians. They may be somewhat decentralised, yes, but there is such a thing as the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' — decentralised; still authoritarian.

I think your naivety shows that you still see 'communism' just as a set of ideological principles. Yes, I'm quite aware and well-versed in leftist ideology, for I was once an anarchist teen, with communist sympathies. I read Marx, Engels, yaddah yaddah. Sartre, etc. They all want to create their wonderful, anti-authoritarian utopia.

But reality and history has shown what communism is in practice. So I don't care about detailed distinctions between different kinds of communism. I use the term to identify the authoritarian far-left, which, in practice, is a pretty good way of using it, as it describes something real, not a Marxist hippie's hashish dream.

Also, yeah, I would take fascism over communism any day. Look at the fascist dictatorships: most fell incredibly quickly, with the exception of Franco's regime in Spain. However, all of the countries got over it. Countries subject to communist dictatorships are still living in its shadow. So yeah, I'd take a short-lived fascist dictatorship over the never-ending hell of communism. (FYI, communism has a much, much higher death toll than fascism, like so much higher it's not even funny)

I think we are not going to find common ground on the authoritarian issue, so the last thing that I will say on that is that I believe anti-authoritarian groups and societies will have to use violence at times to ensure greater freedom for the man, when other groups are threatening this. For example the rebellion in Vichy France was not authoritarian, even though they violently fought a dissenting (actually authoritarian) political movement.

I think even if you believe that all real world nations inspired by Marxism were authoritarian, I would still say that it is unfair to apply what you believe to be a truth you have found about Communism to everyone that falls under the ideological banner of it, and likely does not have sympathies for Stalinism or Maoism in particular.

I have to say that saying I would take fascism over communism is a somewhat shocking statement to me. But I guess it is a sign of the times. The fascist governments you are likely thinking about did fall relatively fast I suppose, but not before creating one of the largest human catastrophes on a world spanning scale. Which did somewhat dampen taste for outright fascist thought for a while (although para-fascist dictatorships like Peron, Pinochet, Pol Pot, the Brazilian military regime, and many more, continued to exist for a long time often with US backing).

The death toll of communism is contentious, especially if one applies the way it is applied to capitalist societies which have insanely high death tolls as well then, but I don't think most people nowadays would deny that the big communist states were unjust (although I think it would be hard to say that the post-Stalin soviet union was particularly more unjust than capitalist Russia). And saying these states were hell is perhaps overstating it, they had huge issues, particularly with surveillance (though were are much worse surveilled nowadays by the United States), but there were also things that worked better than they did in the west. Contemporary critique of real world communism is very much clouded by Western propaganda, but even as someone living in the West, the competition that an existing communist system created actually made it so that Western Democracies had to provide much more for its own citizens, and we've seen the devastation that capitalist hegemony after the fall of the soviet union has brought to the people living in the west.

Anti-government? Don't recall that being reported by CNN or MSNBC or anyone else. Ever. Funny that they'd ignore this.

i'm tired of these f*ckers with this "us vs them" mentallity ruining this forum, right guys? lets GET THEM!!!

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
i'm tired of these f*ckers with this "us vs them" mentallity ruining this forum, right guys? lets GET THEM!!!
😂

The first article you posted doesn't really endear them to me.

I was with them on an anti-government streak, and on fighting neo-Nazi's. Disrupting the right in a general sense, not so much.

And I especially condemn the notion that violence is justified in any way by the history of Nazi germany. Even the most vehement rhetoric are incomparable to Germans rounding people up and murdering them.

Donald Trump and his allies, for all their faults, are not rounding people up and murdering them. Using violence against Hitler is not in any way equivalent to using violence against a MAGA supporter.

Originally posted by Artol
I think we are not going to find common ground on the authoritarian issue, so the last thing that I will say on that is that I believe anti-authoritarian groups and societies will have to use violence at times to ensure greater freedom for the man, when other groups are threatening this. For example the rebellion in Vichy France was not authoritarian, even though they violently fought a dissenting (actually authoritarian) political movement.

I think even if you believe that all real world nations inspired by Marxism were authoritarian, I would still say that it is unfair to apply what you believe to be a truth you have found about Communism to everyone that falls under the ideological banner of it, and likely does not have sympathies for Stalinism or Maoism in particular.

I have to say that saying I would take fascism over communism is a somewhat shocking statement to me. But I guess it is a sign of the times. The fascist governments you are likely thinking about did fall relatively fast I suppose, but not before creating one of the largest human catastrophes on a world spanning scale. Which did somewhat dampen taste for outright fascist thought for a while (although para-fascist dictatorships like Peron, Pinochet, Pol Pot, the Brazilian military regime, and many more, continued to exist for a long time often with US backing).

The death toll of communism is contentious, especially if one applies the way it is applied to capitalist societies which have insanely high death tolls as well then, but I don't think most people nowadays would deny that the big communist states were unjust (although I think it would be hard to say that the post-Stalin soviet union was particularly more unjust than capitalist Russia). And saying these states were hell is perhaps overstating it, they had huge issues, particularly with surveillance (though were are much worse surveilled nowadays by the United States), but there were also things that worked better than they did in the west. Contemporary critique of real world communism is very much clouded by Western propaganda, but even as someone living in the West, the competition that an existing communist system created actually made it so that Western Democracies had to provide much more for its own citizens, and we've seen the devastation that capitalist hegemony after the fall of the soviet union has brought to the people living in the west.

I mean yeah dude of course we're not going to find common ground on this issue if you keep not actually reading what I'm saying about it. My point isn't about the use of violence on its own, it's the use of violence to silence dissenting voices. I did literally just say that.

I think it's fair to put all of those people under that banner as that is what they represent. They all want to topple capitalism and Western democracy and replace it with their utopia, which will always end in catastrophe, famines, purges, and many other horrible etc.'s. I'm not entirely unsympathetic to some of the rhetoric — I recognise the failures of capitalism, despite seeing it clearly as the morally superior system to communist/socialist systems — but this ideology only goes one way.

Funny that you peg the Khmer Rouge as fascist-esque when it was an explicitly Marxist regime.

The death toll of communism is much more explicit than anything you can put on capitalism. Mao ordered all the sparrows to be killed, and 45 million people died. Yes, the atrocities of the fascist regimes in Europe are horrific and need to be remembered so that they do not happen again. But they are dwarfed by even just one example of communism's many catastrophes. China is still stuck in a pretty terrible system; they never truly escaped it. Russia, likewise, is still stuck in a form of never-ending authoritarianism with President For Life Putin. North Korea never ended. Germany? Italy? Spain? Yeah, they're all doing okay, vastly better by comparison. Europe survived its brush with true fascism. The spectre of communism still haunts wherever it once was in possession of.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
i'm tired of these f*ckers with this "us vs them" mentallity ruining this forum, right guys? lets GET THEM!!!
I am neither an us nor a them. I have no allegiance.

It's especially funny how pooty described the BBC article as "balanced" in the title lol. As if the people at the heavily left-leaning BBC (which is basically the UK version of CNN) could ever write a balanced article when it comes to politics.

The BBC is a joke. They play the general public off against the government when convenient, endorse 'woke' shit when convenient, back the government and gaslight the public when convenient, and deflect from their structural paedophilia / child abuse at all times.

Originally posted by Scribble
I mean yeah dude of course we're not going to find common ground on this issue if you keep not actually reading what I'm saying about it. My point isn't about the use of violence on its own, it's the use of violence to silence dissenting voices. I did literally just say that.

I think it's fair to put all of those people under that banner as that is what they represent. They all want to topple capitalism and Western democracy and replace it with their utopia, which will always end in catastrophe, famines, purges, and many other horrible etc.'s. I'm not entirely unsympathetic to some of the rhetoric — I recognise the failures of capitalism, despite seeing it clearly as the morally superior system to communist/socialist systems — but this ideology only goes one way.

Funny that you peg the Khmer Rouge as fascist-esque when it was an explicitly Marxist regime.

The death toll of communism is much more explicit than anything you can put on capitalism. Mao ordered all the sparrows to be killed, and 45 million people died. Yes, the atrocities of the fascist regimes in Europe are horrific and need to be remembered so that they do not happen again. But they are dwarfed by even just one example of communism's many catastrophes. China is still stuck in a pretty terrible system; they never truly escaped it. Russia, likewise, is still stuck in a form of never-ending authoritarianism with President For Life Putin. North Korea never ended. Germany? Italy? Spain? Yeah, they're all doing okay, vastly better by comparison. Europe survived its brush with true fascism. The spectre of communism still haunts wherever it once was in possession of.

The overton window in the west has moved so far right that something as benign as social democrats (or Bernie Sander's platform) get labeled as left wing extremists, I don't buy your justification to throw them all in one pot.

The Khmer Rouge was a para-fascist movement propped up by the United States and China and brought down by an actual Marxist regime in Vietnam.

China today is certainly not marxist, I have had a discussion about that before, but certainly with Deng Xiaoping China has transitioned to what most experts call state-capitalism now, having an authoritarian government with a protectionist capitalist market economy. I think your analysis for why previously communist countries are doing so badly is misguided, the real reason is that after the fall of the communist regimes western capitalists (in the case outside of Russia) and a view oligarchs (in the case of Russia) seized all assets of the countries and implemented draconian neo-liberal policies.

China, incidentally, and perhaps sadly, has lifted millions of people out of poverty with it's hybrid system (and outsourcing of labour by western capitalist countries)

Like I said, the BBC shills whatever it has to to deflect from its structural child abuse. I'd consider that less "balanced" or fair than just, you know, saying whatever the hell gets people riled up / distracts from their crimes against the youth of the UK.

Originally posted by Scribble
The BBC is a joke. They play the general public off against the government when convenient, endorse 'woke' shit when convenient, back the government and gaslight the public when convenient, and deflect from their structural paedophilia / child abuse at all times.

PB loves BBC

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!

The establishment ideology in this picture is making my eyes bleed.

Re: Who are Antifa? A very interesting and balanced article.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Foreigners looking in at America from a observational point of view.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/X56rQkDgd0qqB7R68t6t7C/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-antifa

Balanced lol

Re: Re: Who are Antifa? A very interesting and balanced article.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Balanced lol

😆 😆

Originally posted by Artol
The establishment ideology in this picture is making my eyes bleed.
I think it's pretty accurate tbh mate.

Originally posted by Artol
The overton window in the west has moved so far right that something as benign as social democrats (or Bernie Sander's platform) get labeled as left wing extremists, I don't buy your justification to throw them all in one pot.

The Khmer Rouge was a para-fascist movement propped up by the United States and China and brought down by an actual Marxist regime in Vietnam.

China today is certainly not marxist, I have had a discussion about that before, but certainly with Deng Xiaoping China has transitioned to what most experts call state-capitalism now, having an authoritarian government with a protectionist capitalist market economy. I think your analysis for why previously communist countries are doing so badly is misguided, the real reason is that after the fall of the communist regimes western capitalists (in the case outside of Russia) and a view oligarchs (in the case of Russia) seized all assets of the countries and implemented draconian neo-liberal policies.

China, incidentally, and perhaps sadly, has lifted millions of people out of poverty with it's hybrid system (and outsourcing of labour by western capitalist countries)

I argued this about the Overton window maybe 3vyears ago. Good call 👆

funny since just about everything on the center (including ruphert murdoch's wall street journal) has been attacked by trump as "fake news"

Originally posted by Artol
The overton window in the west has moved so far right that something as benign as social democrats (or Bernie Sander's platform) get labeled as left wing extremists, I don't buy your justification to throw them all in one pot.

The Khmer Rouge was a para-fascist movement propped up by the United States and China and brought down by an actual Marxist regime in Vietnam.

China today is certainly not marxist, I have had a discussion about that before, but certainly with Deng Xiaoping China has transitioned to what most experts call state-capitalism now, having an authoritarian government with a protectionist capitalist market economy. I think your analysis for why previously communist countries are doing so badly is misguided, the real reason is that after the fall of the communist regimes western capitalists (in the case outside of Russia) and a view oligarchs (in the case of Russia) seized all assets of the countries and implemented draconian neo-liberal policies.

China, incidentally, and perhaps sadly, has lifted millions of people out of poverty with it's hybrid system (and outsourcing of labour by western capitalist countries)

I disagree. Sanders is a democratic socialist, not a social democrat (although I agree with him on healthcare, the US needs a social system, even if it is hard to implement). He was also surrounded by activists who used hard communist rhetoric and slang ('gulags', etc.). I'd say that the whole way we see politics is skewed. Centrists and liberals are almost always considered right-wing by modern standards.

Pol Pot was a Marxist, and the Khmer Rouge was communist. Again, this isn't a point of debate; it is a fact. Use any basic search function and you will find this.

China these days is complex so let's not get too far into that (I'm no expert). But, their human rights system is ****ed, and they're still an autocracy. Not great. These countries are doing better now that communism has largely left, but it was the implementation of communism that started it, regardless of what happened afterwards. Communism literally equals bad, bad times. Fascism is easier to recover from.

And yes, maybe it has brought people out of poverty — through a hybrid system. So, with a bit of capitalism, they started doing better. Without capitalism, they had 45 million people die because their nutjob leader wanted all the sparrows killed. Capitalism is, without a doubt, the single biggest influencing factor in bringing people out of poverty in world history. Communism is a bloody-handed murderer.