Who are Antifa? A very interesting and balanced article.

Originally posted by Artol
Sorry, I just saw your edit, about the alternatives being worse. We don't need to have live in an alternative to capitalism to have huge improvement. The lives of working Americans were far better comparatively before Reagan's neo-liberal. Even going back to a (more inclusive) version of capitalism as the United States had in the 50s and 60s, would help almost everyone, except perhaps a tiny, tiny amount of billionaires, and, tbh, even they'd be better off, even if they can't see that at the moment.

Originally posted by Surtur
And our economy took a big hit cuz of the virus and now just as stuff was starting to reopen people burnt down their cities.

Large chains are insured, but all those small businesses that really needed the money and needed to reopen...

It wasn't the virus itself that hurt our economy. It was the overreaction to it: the extended lockdown.

Originally posted by Scribble
I mostly agree with you on the Sanders issue. I'm fine with many of his policies. I just don't like the people he surrounds himself with.

I mean, you're wrong. Pre-capitalism, all of the wealth was owned by the aristocracy. It's only since the free market fully materialised that poverty has gone down. Your analysis of capitalism is very narrow-minded and slanted. It's essentially just a Freedom Model. It's dispassionate. Yes, we need social programs to flesh out society's needs and wants, to iron out the creases and right some wrongs; but without the freedom of capitalism, you can't do that.

A lot of what you're seeming to take umbrage with is the more modern model of corporatism / greed-conservatism. Also tied in with neo-liberalism, and economic imperialism. But, I do think your underlying points have merit. Consumerism has been disastrous for our shared cultural mental health, as it were, and due to the influx of postmodern thought, which was completely embraced by corporatism, much of our inherent truths have been wiped away. Also, just as a general point, **** the Tories.

I made a point about pre-capitalism above, btw.

I think your view of capitalism is the one that was actually fought for by leftists. Things like the 5 day, 40 hour work week, sick leave, healthcare, pensions, those are not things capitalism gave us. Those are things that real people had to fight and die for against capitalist interest. You are right that my current anger is mainly at the neo-liberal capitalism we live in, but I am aware of the historic circumstances.

Originally posted by Artol
I made a point about pre-capitalism above, btw.

I think your view of capitalism is the one that was actually fought for by leftists. Things like the 5 day, 40 hour work week, sick leave, healthcare, pensions, those are not things capitalism gave us. Those are things that real people had to fight and die for against capitalist interest. You are right that my current anger is mainly at the neo-liberal capitalism we live in, but I am aware of the historic circumstances.

However, based on your general stances, I'd say that many of our final beliefs may overlap, even if we come at them from different perspectives.

My overall belief is that our current system is decent, one of the best of all time, historically — and that we need to continue to work on it and improve it. Much of the far-left seeks to explicitly 'dismantle capitalism', which is a major 'Naw' from me.

May I ask what country you're from, or based in?

Originally posted by Scribble
Well, yeah, that's generally my stance. I'm not a libertarian. No system is perfect. But capitalism can be built on, developed, improved; communism demands to be taken as perfect, despite it having only shown failure.

However, based on your general stances, I'd say that many of our final beliefs may overlap, even if we come at them from different perspectives.

My overall belief is that our current system is decent, one of the best of all time, historically — and that we need to continue to work on it and improve it. Much of the far-left seeks to explicitly 'dismantle capitalism', which is a major 'Naw' from me.

May I ask what country you're from, or based in?

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
The far left are pretty much an invention of the last three years to enable the systematic dismantling of civil rights and create a scapegoat and excuse for intolerance.

Originally posted by Scribble
Nah.

Originally posted by Scribble
Well, yeah, that's generally my stance. I'm not a libertarian. No system is perfect. But capitalism can be built on, developed, improved; communism demands to be taken as perfect, despite it having only shown failure.

However, based on your general stances, I'd say that many of our final beliefs may overlap, even if we come at them from different perspectives.

My overall belief is that our current system is decent, one of the best of all time, historically — and that we need to continue to work on it and improve it. Much of the far-left seeks to explicitly 'dismantle capitalism', which is a major 'Naw' from me.

May I ask what country you're from, or based in?

I want a hybrid system with socialist tendencies. I think that the market logic that we often associate with capitalism can be very powerful, but I don't think we need to give capitalists (or shareholders) the immense power they have to harness the market's abilities, a limited role I'm alright with though.

When you say our current system, I am wondering, how far do you view our current system to go back, because if you mean say "our current system of the last 30 years" I'd disagree, I view that as a large misstep in progress.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Yah.

The far-left has grown in support amongst young people drastically in the past few years, and again, being a young person and knowing young people, I know this to be true.

I mean this with no offence, but you live a distant, sheltered life. You've earned that as you've worked for it, but it shows that you have become disconnected from reality. It's like looking down at the fish and telling them that the water around them ain't wet.

Originally posted by Artol
I want a hybrid system with socialist tendencies. I think that the market logic that we often associate with capitalism can be very powerful, but I don't think we need to give capitalists (or shareholders) the immense power they have to harness the market's abilities, a limited role I'm alright with though.

When you say our current system, I am wondering, how far do you view our current system to go back, because if you mean say "our current system of the last 30 years" I'd disagree, I view that as a large misstep in progress.

I do think the far left as right wing politicians are using it is mainly an invention, of course there are some people that fall into that, but they are not a real political force. The left generally has had somewhat of a resurgence after the 2008 crash, with the Occupy movement and Sanders and Corbyn, but obviously as we can see by the defeats of all three of that they are not a force that can contend with the united establishment forces of Democrats and Republicans (or Blairite Labour, Liberal Democrats and Tories in the UK) ...

Originally posted by Artol
I want a hybrid system with socialist tendencies. I think that the market logic that we often associate with capitalism can be very powerful, but I don't think we need to give capitalists (or shareholders) the immense power they have to harness the market's abilities, a limited role I'm alright with though.

When you say our current system, I am wondering, how far do you view our current system to go back, because if you mean say "our current system of the last 30 years" I'd disagree, I view that as a large misstep in progress.

I also agree that there have been steps back in the past 30 years, for sure. Thatcher and Reagan and their brand of what I kind of think of as 'economic imperialism'. The whole neo-liberal idea that everything is for sale. Not a huge fan of all that stuff.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
me too and a misstep that has speeded up. My generation is generally much better off than Scribbles. Surely he sees this.

Originally posted by Scribble
I certainly do. I live in London and there doesn't look like there's much hope of me getting my own place any time soon, despite working a genuinely good job. Neo-liberal policies allowed for great swathes of housing in the city to be bought up by rich Arabs and Russian oligarchs. Thanks, Boris Johnson!

But Artol just to talk about Antifa since you don't seem to be from here, they really do not tend to behave like the anti-fascists they claim to be.

Let me get this out of the way: there is a small percentage of white supremacists here and yes antifa has shown up and clashed with literal white supremacists at times. I can't say I give a shit if an actual nazi gets punched.

The problem is it's not just white supremacists they clash with. They will attack innocent people, including journalists. The defense for this is often that antifa has never killed someone, but they have come close. We aren't talking about just punching, we are talking about beating people over the head with metal objects, hurling bricks at heads, hurling glass bottles at heads, etc.

The difference between antifa and the white supremacists is the conservatives despise the white supremacists. Yes you will find some who don't, but the majority actively despise them. The left is either supportive of Antifa or indifferent to their deeds.

At the end of the day, the alt right is on the outside looking in. The radical left has infected Academia and the Entertainment industry, they control it. They are on the inside.

At least that is how I see it. I see those who can shape this culture more dangerous than nazis who have small numbers and no power here. That is just me.

Originally posted by Scribble
I'm inclined to agree. Capitalism, as I said before, is dispassionate, and can thus attract people who don't care about other people into positions of power. I think that's a major issue. People should always be the focus of any system as there's not much point in one otherwise.

I also agree that there have been steps back in the past 30 years, for sure. Thatcher and Reagan and their brand of what I kind of think of as 'economic imperialism'. The whole neo-liberal idea that everything is for sale. Not a huge fan of all that stuff.

I don't think it's dispassionate, maybe in some idealist kind of way, that's never been used. I think capitalism as it has ever been implemented in reality has been designed to benefit certain people over others. I don't subscribe to libertarian ideas of capitalism as an unbiased playing field that finds whatever is most efficient.

Yeah, it sounds like we are on the same page there. How do you think we can best roll back these changes of the past 30 years? I'd be interested both in politics and policy, i.e. what political campaigns and movements and what specific laws you are in favor of.

Originally posted by Artol
I don't think it's dispassionate, maybe in some idealist kind of way, that's never been used. I think capitalism as it has ever been implemented in reality has been designed to benefit certain people over others. I don't subscribe to libertarian ideas of capitalism as an unbiased playing field that finds whatever is most efficient.

Yeah, it sounds like we are on the same page there. How do you think we can best roll back these changes of the past 30 years? I'd be interested both in politics and policy, i.e. what political campaigns and movements and what specific laws you are in favor of.

Originally posted by Surtur
But Artol just to talk about Antifa since you don't seem to be from here, they really do not tend to behave like the anti-fascists they claim to be.

Let me get this out of the way: there is a small percentage of white supremacists here and yes antifa has shown up and clashed with literal white supremacists at times. I can't say I give a shit if an actual nazi gets punched.

The problem is it's not just white supremacists they clash with. They will attack innocent people, including journalists. The defense for this is often that antifa has never killed someone, but they have come close. We aren't talking about just punching, we are talking about beating people over the head with metal objects, hurling bricks at heads, hurling glass bottles at heads, etc.

The difference between antifa and the white supremacists is the conservatives despise the white supremacists. Yes you will find some who don't, but the majority actively despise them. The left is either supportive of Antifa or indifferent to their deeds.

At the end of the day, the alt right is on the outside looking in. The radical left has infected Academia and the Entertainment industry, they control it. They are on the inside.

At least that is how I see it. I see those who can shape this culture more dangerous than nazis who have small numbers and no power here. That is just me.

I have heard similar accounts, I guess what is always strange to me is how many things get conflated into the left. I guess from my POV, a lot of the things you said should be done are left wing, I suspect you would greatly benefit from left wing policies (of the kind that our parents generation were the beneficiaries of), yet there is a fundamental dislike of anything that is called left. It's similar in the US as a whole, a lot of actual left ideas are pretty popular, but there's just no way that establishment Democrats and Republicans are ever going to deliver. It's the same with Trump, I can see some of his appeal, much of the populism of his campaign would fit perfectly in a moderate leftists playbook, yet once he got into office he did not deliver on these promises, and if anything continued the looting of the American people by the wealthiest that has been going on under Obama, under Bush Jr., under Clinton...

Originally posted by Artol
I made a point about pre-capitalism above, btw.

I think your view of capitalism is the one that was actually fought for by leftists. Things like the 5 day, 40 hour work week, sick leave, healthcare, pensions, those are not things capitalism gave us. Those are things that real people had to fight and die for against capitalist interest. You are right that my current anger is mainly at the neo-liberal capitalism we live in, but I am aware of the historic circumstances.

Originally posted by Artol
I don't think it's dispassionate, maybe in some idealist kind of way, that's never been used. I think capitalism as it has ever been implemented in reality has been designed to benefit certain people over others. I don't subscribe to libertarian ideas of capitalism as an unbiased playing field that finds whatever is most efficient.

Yeah, it sounds like we are on the same page there. How do you think we can best roll back these changes of the past 30 years? I'd be interested both in politics and policy, i.e. what political campaigns and movements and what specific laws you are in favor of.

My stance would generally be one of anti-globalism; a sensible re-evaluation of actual civic nationalism. I think that we can do without all of these immensely wealthy foreign bodies that own so much of the UK, especially London. Localism is also something I tend to gravitate towards: if companies want to come in and be a part of local communities, then they should pay taxes directly to the local areas and get involved with building up independent businesses and culture in the area. I highly dislike multinational corporations owning so much of areas that they give nothing back to; McDonald's, for example, does nothing to an area it invades other than to make its residents less healthy.

I imagine you come from a different perspective — I'd love to hear your own views, as I'm aware there are many other ways to tackle this issue.