Originally posted by -Pr-
We know that Jedi can be old men and still ridiculously good duelists (Dooku),
The only difference there id say is Dooku was still always keeping his skills up by training Ventress and Grievous. Not to mention getting into numerous fights against Jedi. And in his pre-Sith days hed have Jedi on his level and above to spar (Yoda and Mace).
However Ben (as far as we know), would not have the opportunity to keep his duelling skill as sharp.
That said he clearly showed hes still got it every time he did need to get into a Saber fight.
Originally posted by Darth ThorYeah, after his exile it was stated that Kenobi would go years without ever touching his lightsaber:
The only difference there id say is Dooku was still always keeping his skills up by training Ventress and Grievous. Not to mention getting into numerous fights against Jedi. And in his pre-Sith days hed have Jedi on his level and above to spar (Yoda and Mace).However Ben (as far as we know), would not have the opportunity to keep his duelling skill as sharp.
That said he clearly showed hes still got it every time he did need to get into a Saber fight.
And by the time of ANH, it was stated that he'd become physically weaker as well... Though I suppose you could argue that his increased connection to the Force could have made up for his diminished physicality.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, after his exile it was stated that Kenobi would go years without ever touching his lightsaber:
https://i.imgur.com/a3Di1yd.jpgAnd by the time of ANH, it was stated that he'd become physically weaker as well... Though I suppose you could argue that his increased connection to the Force could have made up for his diminished physicality.
Wasn't it later in that comic he started training again?
Originally posted by ZenwolfI don't know if he actually started training with his lightsaber regularly, but he did start using it again here and there(when it was an absolute necessity.)
Wasn't it later in that comic he started training again?
But for what it's worth, later comics also make it a point to note that he'd gotten a bit clumsy and out of practice over the years:
https://i.imgur.com/Y4MzAh8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UvzdR5k.jpg
So I don't think he was doing many saber drills during his time in exile -- but perhaps he started getting back into it by the Rebels-era. /shrug
Yeah He clearly would only use his lightsaber if absolutely necessary. He had to hide hes a Jedi after all.
And as a duelist, who would he spar against? I guess he could practice deflecting against that flying training orb, but unless he had tons of them, that wouldnt really push him very hard.
And Filoni never said he grew as a duelist. He said that another long drawn out fight with Maul would suggest no growth. But that was mostly a psychological battle, so the growth he was referring to was likely maturity and mental clarity. And growth as in learning from his past fights against Maul.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
True say.The question is how/why hes superior though. And everything Filoni states indicates their frame of mind at this point. Saber skills or power in the Force are never mentioned as a factor for Ben being superior, except for when (as Pr mentioned), it came to protecting Luke which gave Ben that extra dose of invincibility.
so the growth he was referring to was likely maturity and mental clarity.
The actual duel is very short, how did you come to the conclusion it had to come this way?...(feloni) If you talk to a lot of people who sword fight, they'll tell you people who are very good don't have long fights. So that scene, its a homage to the 7th samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see another prolonged lightsaber fight. But I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters don't have growth
don't have growth
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't know if he actually started training with his lightsaber regularly, but he did start using it again here and there(when it was an absolute necessity.)But for what it's worth, later comics also make it a point to note that he'd gotten a bit clumsy and out of practice over the years:
https://i.imgur.com/Y4MzAh8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UvzdR5k.jpgSo I don't think he was doing many saber drills during his time in exile -- but perhaps he started getting back into it by the Rebels-era. /shrug
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The reasons given are intrinsic character traits to both characters. Kenobi's emotional growth is represented in his superiority as a fighter. The "dose of invincibility" isn't a thing that's said anywhere. :/Weird I don't see "maturity" and mental clarity" anywhere here:
Yes thor, if a long fight --doesn't show growth--, then a shorter fight would --show growth--. This only makes any sort of sense if there's --growth-- to show. :/
If that were his only quote you might have had a point.
But for those of us who have read all his comments on that fight, on top of Witwers and canon sources, it becomes pretty evident it was all down to the mental state of both characters. The protecting Luke thing was specifically mentioned as an invincible moment for Ben (Invincible as far as Maul is concerned).
Nowhere does Filoni state Kenobi was superior due to sword skills or force mastery.
Plus as youve pointed out Mauls scaling to Ahsoka and hers to Vader, doesnt really leave room for too much of a gap between Maul and Kenobi in combat skill.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
[B]If that were his only quote you might have had a point.
But for those of us who have read all his comments on that fight
The protecting Luke thing was specifically mentioned as an invincible moment for Ben
Plus as youve pointed out Mauls scaling to Ahsoka and hers to Vader, doesnt really leave room for too much of a gap between Maul and Kenobi in combat skill.
Nowhere does Filoni state Kenobi was superior due to sword skills or force mastery.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
If you could actually post these quotes and show how they prove what you're arguing, you would have made your first argument here.Those of us? Are you really using popular opinion. Kenobi wasn't superior to maul when he beat him and filoni explicitly said "maul can't beat filoni" is a fringe opinion the vast majority of sw community doesn't take seriously. Filoni said maul can't beat kenobi period. Show a contradiction or concede. Their "mental state" is reflected in their combative growth per filoni, so i have zero clue what saying "it's down to mental state" is supposed to prove.
No it was not, lmao. Post the quote already.
I never claimed a big gap.
Why the hell does he need to state that. Kenobi won, and maul "can't beat kenobi." You're claiming that the latter is a result of an external app, one you have yet to provide proof for.
Oh Rocky, when will you learn, just because sometimes I can't be arsed looking up the same old quotes again and again, does not make me some kind of liar making shit up.
I'm not known as some troll who does that, and however much you disagree with me, you should at least have figured that much about me by now. Anyway here are Filoni's comments on how Obi-Wan grew:
https://www.starwars.com/news/dave-filoni-interview-star-wars-rebels-season-three
He doesn’t want to kill Maul by that point. Obi-Wan, to me, has grown as a character so much that he knows he could dispatch Maul, or Maul could dispatch him, but to what point?
^ Emphasis Mine. So he talks about Obi-Wan's growth here, and Specifically mentions his Growth as a CHARACTER. Now it's for you to PROVE he's grown in other ways. Given the Combative growth you are claiming is not mentioned anywhere.
Of course his CHARACTER GROWTH has made him Maul's superior in combat, but that's down to CHARACTER, not Saber Skills or Force Mastery.
To further prove the point:
I felt that with Maul, any moment that he parries Obi-Wan is saying that he’s as good as Obi-Wan and I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think Maul ever accepted a path of selflessness and enlightenment and in the end, never getting over his need for revenge, and his anger and the way his life worked out is what undid him. And I firmly believe that Obi-Wan, if left to his own devices, would not have killed Maul if he didn’t have to.
^ Emphasis Mine. Here Filoni states Maul isn't Kenobi's equal, and flat out goes onto state why. It's due to Kenobi's selflessness and enlightenment.
This is all backed by HOW Kenobi beat Maul, which was by suckering him in with Qui-Gon's stance. We KNOW this, it's confirmed over and over. But that makes it clear this was a battle of mind sets more than anything else, and that's a category where Maul is Kenobi's clear inferior, and will always lose to him on that front.
As for the invincible Moment that I apparently made up:
because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that.[/u]
Emphasis mine. It was an Invincible moment, given he specifically says In That MOMENT, You Can't DEFEAT That. A moment that comes because he is fighting to protect Luke, as noted in the preceding sentence.
And just to drill the same point over all our heads again, he goes on to say:
[i]So I felt that moment had to be beyond a lightsaber fight and had to be more an expression of their characters.
^ Again this Lightsaber fight really came down to Character GROWTH.
So lets summarise what we have here:
1) Obi-Wan's Growth here is Growth AS A CHARACTER.
2) Filoni clarifies that Kenobi's superiority over Maul is superiority in selflessness and enlightenment. Which is the reason Kenobi wins the Lightsaber fight.
3) Kenobi beats Maul by suckering him in with Qui-Gon's stance. So even though this is via a lightsaber fight, it further proves this was a Psychological battle. Was fought that way, played out that way and won that way. But no mention or even hint of Obi-Wan having won due to superior saver skills or force mastery.
4) It was also confirmed protecting Luke made this an extra invincible moment for Kenobi. But again it's invincibility brought about by mindset, not sober skills or force mastery.
Now bring the quote where Filoni states Kenobi has superior sword skills or force mastery to Maul.
If you can't, then may I suggest that instead of trolling trying to make his comments mean something else entirely, after he has already given a very in depth commentary of that fight... Try instead just admitting that You BELIEVE, the fight shows Kenobi has the superior duelling skills, but you have no actual proof of that.
Like heck, even Filoni is humble enough to say that He doesn't BELIEVE Maul is Kenobi's equal, and yet somehow you think you can take his commentary to PROVE as some kind of FACT that Kenobi has superior skillz, something Filoni never once mentioned in his in depth commentary and analysis. And we know from his Clone Wars commentary, he is always willing to bring up duelling skills and power in the force as the reason for the win.
^ Can't edit and missed out 5:
5) The whole saber fight was stated to be Beyond a lightsaber fight, and more of an expression of their characters.
Also there's a bit of a f*** up there with the italics, so I should have put the quotes in inverted commas, and can't edit now. But I'm sure you'll figure out where Filoni's quotes end and where my comments start.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only difference there id say is Dooku was still always keeping his skills up by training Ventress and Grievous. Not to mention getting into numerous fights against Jedi. And in his pre-Sith days hed have Jedi on his level and above to spar (Yoda and Mace).However Ben (as far as we know), would not have the opportunity to keep his duelling skill as sharp.
That said he clearly showed hes still got it every time he did need to get into a Saber fight.
Oh, I'm not trrying to claim he was as sharp as he was in ROTS. He was obviously fairly out of practice by the time ANH comes around. Just not to the point someone like Maul was, I imagine, because Kenobi could supplement any rust with his stronger connection to the force.
I was more talking about how I don't think age is as much a barrier to Jedi as it is to most people. Yoda and Dooku being prime examples of old bastards that were still able to go.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, after his exile it was stated that Kenobi would go years without ever touching his lightsaber:
https://i.imgur.com/a3Di1yd.jpgAnd by the time of ANH, it was stated that he'd become physically weaker as well... Though I suppose you could argue that his increased connection to the Force could have made up for his diminished physicality.
Weaker why? Age or some sort of outside influence?
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it's really hard to say where Kenobi was skill-wise by the time of Rebels/ANH.As you said, his casual defeat of Maul had very little to do with skill, and everything to do with spiritual growth/mindset.
Not sure I agree, but I'm guessing we would have different ideas of skill?
For me, knowing to feint, drawing Maul in and tricking him counts as skill. Not the same kind of skill that had him flipping over a four-armed Grievous and the like, but still skilfull.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Weaker why? Age or some sort of outside influence?
Living on Tatooine - as a hermit, to boot - took its toll on him:
Obi-Wan believed that Tatooine affected his aging process.From the canonical novel Ahsoka,
He stood up, his knees creaking in a rather alarming fashion. Surely he wasn't that old yet. It must be the desert climate that affected him strangely.
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/12269/did-obi-wan-age-normally
I'm more than sure Galan will gladly elaborate on that or confirm it.
Originally posted by -Pr-Like Stilt mentioned, Kenobi's years on Tatooine weren't kind to him -- the binary suns and harsh desert climate sped up his aging process. Keep in mind that he was canonically just 57 years old here:
Weaker why? Age or some sort of outside influence?
But a few different sources mention that he had grown physically weaker by the time of ANH.
Originally posted by -Pr-Oh he was definitely still skilled. Just saying that the encounter itself had a lot to do with their respective mindsets in that moment. In terms of spiritual enlightenment and overall connection to the Force, Kenobi had grown immensely over the years, and he was also protecting someone greater than himself. Maul, on the other hand, hadn't really grown at all in that respect -- he was still fixated on the past, and was fully consumed by his emotions/revenge-lust.
Not sure I agree, but I'm guessing we would have different ideas of skill?For me, knowing to feint, drawing Maul in and tricking him counts as skill. Not the same kind of skill that had him flipping over a four-armed Grievous and the like, but still skilfull.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Living on Tatooine - as a hermit, to boot - took its toll on him:https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/12269/did-obi-wan-age-normally
I'm more than sure Galan will gladly elaborate on that or confirm it.
Originally posted by Galan007
Like Stilt mentioned, Kenobi's years on Tatooine weren't kind to him -- the binary suns and harsh desert climate sped up his aging process. Keep in mind that he was canonically just 57 years old here:But a few different sources mention that he had grown physically weaker by the time of ANH.
Oh he was definitely still skilled. Just saying that the encounter itself had a lot to do with their respective mindsets in that moment. In terms of spiritual enlightenment and overall connection to the Force, Kenobi had grown immensely over the years, and he was also protecting someone greater than himself. Maul, on the other hand, hadn't really grown at all in that respect -- he was still fixated on the past, and was fully consumed by his emotions/revenge-lust.
Ah okay. It almost seems counter-intuitive. Jedi can get really old and still perform. Obi-Wan gets more powerful in the force, and even has an actual mission, but still gets weaker because... Tatooine is a shithole, I guess.
Oh okay. Mindset definitely had a lot to do with it.
