As usual, your evidence doesn't actually prove what you say it does. What you are trying to prove here is that Kenobi beating maul was circumstantial:
He doesn’t want to kill Maul by that point. Obi-Wan, to me, has grown as a character so much that he knows he could dispatch Maul, or Maul could dispatch him, but to what point?
Dismissed.
I felt that with Maul, any moment that he parries Obi-Wan is saying that he’s as good as Obi-Wan and I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think Maul ever accepted a path of selflessness and enlightenment
Kenobi is superior to Rebels Maul.
because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that.
The moment is not attributed to protecting Luke. Protecting Luke is why he fights. "Knowing who he is" is why he wins. For this to be circumstantial, you need to show that Kenobi wouldn't usually "know who he is." If that's an intristic aspect of his character, he will always be that strong. Which would mean that on top of Maul "not being good as kenobi" specifcially being why maul isn't shown parrying too many of kenobi's strikes, "you", who in this situation is clearly maul, "can't beat him." Nothing you've cited implies extenuating circumstances. Characterization is not an external amp, it is something that is often expressed in fights, and as the second quote shows, filoni specifcally used his authority as an author to express kenobi's character growth by being maul's better in a fight.
Oh he was definitely still skilled. Just saying that the encounter itself had a lot to do with their respective mindsets in that moment. In terms of spiritual enlightenment and overall connection to the Force, Kenobi had grown immensely over the years, and he was also protecting someone greater than himself. Maul, on the other hand, hadn't really grown at all in that respect -- he was still fixated on the past, and was fully consumed by his emotions/revenge-lust.
I don't really see the point of sticking to pre-disney's conception of kenobi. We have quotes that imply both combative and power growth, and we have the feat of kenobi beating someone who can't be insta-stomped by ahsoka. At this point, I think it's more than suffecient to accept Disney Kenobi as peaking post rots, much like Vader.
Originally posted by -Pr-That particular statement could have definitely been Vader throwing a little dun moch at Kenobi... Because I doubt Kenobi's "powers" were actually weaker at all -- Rebels/ANH was almost certainly his peak in that respect.
Hey. For all we know that could just be Vader being his usual overdramatic self.
Originally posted by RockydonovangI don't think Kenobi was unskilled in the slightest, but I do think the "growth" Filoni mentions is primarily in regard to Kenobi's spiritual/emotional evolution as a character, and not necessarily his growth as a warrior.
Galan, i direct your attention to the second quote. Kenobi pretty clearly implied to be maul's combative superioir, even if it was intended a reflection of character growth.
I posted this earlier, but Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states that Kenobi was able to "catch Maul off guard" by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style:
https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpg
Which makes sense when you look at the respective stances they took just before engaging Maul:
Moreover, Jedi vs. Sith (2016) states: "Obi-Wan was older and weaker" during his fight with Vader in ANH.
And A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018) states: "Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice" during his fight with Vader in ANH.
Granted, the fight with Maul took place 2 years before ANH, but the point still stands: Kenobi had become physically weaker over the years. His defeat of Maul had a great deal to do with his vastly superior mindset and inner growth as a character(along with him luring Maul into a false sense of security by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style.) I'd say Kenobi's skill as a swordsman took a backseat to those primary factors. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
His defeat of Maul had a great deal to do with his vastly superior mindset and inner growth as a character(along with him luring Maul into a false sense of security by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style.)
I dont think those are two separate points. I think luring Maul
In using Qui-Gons stance was a direct reflection of where both their mindsets were at.
Yeah, Maul being stuck in the past and letting his emotions/revenge-lust fully consume him is exactly WHY he took Kenobi's bait. He even tried to use the same damn strikes that he used to kill Qui-Gon, ffs.
Kenobi had mentally/spiritually evolved. Maul hadn't(at least when it came to fighting Kenobi.)
Originally posted by Galan007I didn't see this before. That actually makes a lot of sense.
I posted this earlier, but Ultimate Star Wars (2019) states that Kenobi was able to "catch Maul off guard" by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style:
https://i.imgur.com/pY1MBqb.jpgWhich makes sense when you look at the respective stances they took just before engaging Maul:
Originally posted by Galan007
That particular statement could have definitely been Vader throwing a little dun moch at Kenobi... Because I doubt Kenobi's "powers" were actually weaker at all -- Rebels/ANH was almost certainly his peak in that respect.
For me it goes back to that conversation where I asked about whether we should mentally "scale up" ANH Vader vs Kenobi in our minds to be a fight more in line with the prequels. I'm not trying to argue canon or anything. My opinion is just that it's hard for me to think Kenobi had declined that much if we're supposed to believe that he could hang with Vader in ANH.
And Vader by then was monstrous.
^ To line it up with canon, just think of Ben Kenobi being a simpler fighter now, without all the flashy acrobatics. And Vader fighting him likewise, as hes more cautious against him after what happened in ROTS.
Its part of the reason they wanted Ben vs Maul to be so short, to make Bens style in line with ANH. So a long fight like that against a Maul doing his usual acrobatics might have looked kinda silly.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah and Kenobi KNEW it.He Knew Exactly to trigger Maul and exactly how hed respond.
Meh, he wasn't trying to trigger him. He wanted to avoid the conflict.
Was there some verbal ownage? Sure, but it wasn't exactly Obi's goal to get Maul all riled up. He was just being honest (another one of his Jedi traits).
But once Maul figured out Kenobi had a purpose on Tatooine... the fight was inevitable.
Originally posted by Galan007
Moreover, Jedi vs. Sith (2016) states: "Obi-Wan was older and weaker" during his fight with Vader in ANH.And A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018) states: "Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice" during his fight with Vader in ANH.
Granted, the fight with Maul took place 2 years before ANH, but the point still stands: Kenobi had become physically weaker over the years. His defeat of Maul had a great deal to do with his vastly superior mindset and inner growth as a character(along with him luring Maul into a false sense of security by feigning Qui-Gon's fighting style.) I'd say Kenobi's skill as a swordsman took a backseat to those primary factors. /shrug
In addition to the two sources that you quoted, stating that Ben declined during this exile, we also have this source:
“Slowed by age, Obi-Wan is not the duelist he once was.” -- Star Wars in 100 scenes.
It explicitly states that Ben declined as a duelist because he was slowed down by age, Star Wars in 100 Scenes was published in August 2014, I think that makes it Disney Canon.
And on the topic if Filoni's views on Ben Kenobi, I don't think we should commit double standards when appealing to Filoni's remarks about Ben Kenobi experiencing GROWTH! because the exact same Dave Filoni had the following to say about Kenobi's PRIME!
https://twitter.com/ariesanakin/status/1259205536488329219?s=21
Granted, prime is a broad term and isn't necessarily synonymous with peak, but it appears that Filoni thinks Obi-Wan's best years as a fighter is during the Prequel era, hence the why he says TPM Kenobi is in his "prime" in that clip. I highly doubt that Filoni thinks that Kenobi's prime extends from the Prequel era.... All the way to Rebels era, that doesn't really make any sense, plus the intepretation of Filoni's remarks about GROWTH! in that Rebels Recon also flies in the face of at least 3 published sources that state Ben declined during his exile.
Originally posted by -Pr-I've said this before, but in terms of spiritual/emotional growth, and his overall connection to the Force, Rebels/ANH was definitely Kenobi's peak. Even his dialogue with Maul, simple as it was, did a great job showing us just how much he'd evolved as a character over the years.
For me it goes back to that conversation where I asked about whether we should mentally "scale up" ANH Vader vs Kenobi in our minds to be a fight more in line with the prequels. I'm not trying to argue canon or anything. My opinion is just that it's hard for me to think Kenobi had declined that much if we're supposed to believe that he could hang with Vader in ANH.And Vader by then was monstrous.
But in terms of Kenobi's combat skills as a warrior, I'd still say RotS was his peak. That's not to say Rebels/ANH Kenobi was unskilled, but furthering his saber skills just isn't what Kenobi was focused on during his years in isolation. That's likely why a few different sources mention that he'd become physically weaker and less skilled over the years.
But as Leia stated, increased age often strengthens one's connection to the Force:
There was something about growing old that made her connection with the Force even stronger. When the body began to fail, the mind reached out, unencumbered by physical ability.
As for their fight in ANH: it was stated that Vader was initially being cautious against Kenobi -- testing his skill/power. He didn't want to make the same mistakes he had during their last encounter(ie. being an overconfident dipshit.) I reckon that's why their battle lasted as long as it did, especially since Kenobi commented mid-battle that he had absolutely no chance of defeating Vader.
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Granted, prime is a broad term and isn't necessarily synonymous with peak, but it appears that Filoni thinks Obi-Wan's best years as a fighter is during the Prequel era, hence the why he says TPM Kenobi is in his "prime" in that clip. I highly doubt that Filoni thinks that Kenobi's prime extends from the Prequel era.... All the way to Rebels era, that doesn't really make any sense, plus the intepretation of Filoni's remarks about GROWTH! in that Rebels Recon also flies in the face of at least 3 published sources that state Ben declined during his exile.
Did you read my posts where I quoted him?
He clarifies its GROWTH! as a character and spiritually. But thats what puts him above Maul in a fight.
