There is no such thing as privilege.

Originally posted by Artol
I think if your desire is to communicate that you think the term "privilege" is problematic, because you see it as elevating yourself over black people and you say the term "white privilege doesn't exist" to that end, you are failing to communicate your meaning to them. That's not what most people will understand when you say that, what they will believe you said is "white people have no advantages over black people and black people do not face racist obstacles that I do not face".

I have many issues with Jordan Peterson, but one of his better advice is to be precise with your language, and I think if you come at it from an explicatory angle, rather than what I think most people would consider a slogan, you might be more successful in communicating your feelings to your friends.

I always think it's best to take people at the headspace they are in and try to communicate with them on that level, even if you have very different preferences in terminology.

I'm happy to discuss the pros/cons of being white in America, or the West in general, but not whilst things are as they are right now as I don't have trust in people to be responsible about it. I also resent America's problems being wholesale applied onto UK society when things aren't even close to what they're like over there.

Originally posted by Scribble
Oh, I just don't talk to people in real life about politics, it's way too touchy these days, considering that most of my friends are increasingly vocal leftists. I just don't like the fact that there are people I know posting stuff on social media that says "If you don't take part in this BLM stuff and accept your privilege, you're not my friend." Leftist rhetoric is poison right now, and that includes the discussion of privilege; everything has to be taken on their terms, and I'm not willing to play part in skewed political games like that.

I'm happy to discuss the pros/cons of being white in America, or the West in general, but not whilst things are as they are right now as I don't have trust in people to be responsible about it. I also resent America's problems being wholesale applied onto UK society when things aren't even close to what they're like over there.

Originally posted by StyleTime
👆
I think if people would stop treating their privilege like an accusation, we could all work through this way faster. Having, say, heterosexual privilege, doesn't mean you're a shit human being. It just means you lucked out and won't encounter the same obstacles a gay person would in similar environments.

I think I see the disconnect here. The problem isn't acknowledging white privilege, or even saying you're happy to be white. These two statements aren't the same.

"I'm sure glad I'm not black because I get to avoid many of the problems they face in our society, although I hope we as a society stop marginalizing non-white people"

"I'm sure glad I'm not black because black people are inferior."

One is racist. One is an acknowledgement of privilege. As long as you're not doing the second one, I don't see the problem.

I would say Marxist theory does emphasize the primacy of economic class though, and that extends to Marxist Feminism or Marxist views in Race theory. It's just that class is further complicated by race and such.

Both of those above statements are racist. I don't think black people should feel like they were "born unlucky" because they are black.

How are people not understanding how this entire way of thinking is awful? Nobody should feel lucky they were born one race or another. We can accept the difficulties or racism that black people (or other minorities) face without starting this whole idea of "luck" and "privilege". As I have said, I think the goal is noble, but the tactics are toxic and bad for long-term race relations, because if we do eventually level out society and black people don't face these discriminations, we'll all have conditioned 'privilege' into our psyches, and it won't just go away. It will create dissonance, resentment and various other pathologies.

It's the wrong way of looking at it, and I'm still not subscribing to it.

I have friends on the right who aren't racists etc. Then I have others who are further right whom I am polite to but, they're not my friend in my mind anymore.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
I have friends on the right who aren't racists etc. Then I have others who are further right whom I am polite to but, they're not my friend in my mind anymore.

*has not happened many times

Stupid KMC not letting me edit posts with quotes in

Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah if I find out one of my friends is genuinely far-right or just generally racist then I distance myself from them in a way that isn't rude, but pronounced enough for them to realise that I don't align with their nasty shit. Luckily that was not happened many times, although I have a lot of friends who are going the other way pretty extremely — many starting to identify even as full communists. But funnily enough they're ones I can joke with usually, I always take pops at communism and play an exaggerated capitalist version of myself so they can take the piss out of me, too.

Originally posted by Scribble
*has not happened many times

Stupid KMC not letting me edit posts with quotes in

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
too many on here are would be too far right for me in real life. KMC is broken. If I ever did make a sock account here, I think I would call it tumbleweed.

Originally posted by Scribble
You have to remember that people online are often more unrestrained and willing to exaggerate their views than in real life. I think if there were to be a KMC meetup, a lot of people's personalities would be borderline unrecognisable, and most people would get along just fine

Originally posted by Scribble
You have to remember that people online are often more unrestrained and willing to exaggerate their views than in real life. I think if there were to be a KMC meetup, a lot of people's personalities would be borderline unrecognisable, and most people would get along just fine

And you have to remember that, to pooty/whirly, anyone who merely supports Trump or voted for Brexit is"far right" in his delusional mind. So is anyone who doesn't agree with his crazy, shitty Marxist ideology.

Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
And you have to remember that, to pooty/whirly, anyone who merely supports Trump or voted for Brexit is"far right" in his delusional mind. So is anyone who doesn't agree with his crazy, shitty Marxist ideology.

I hate to break it to you but the USA could probably take lessons on a more balanced system then our praise capitalism over all................more pieces of socialism would be massively better then our system that essentially is a snake swallowing its own tail. 😉

Just like trickle down economics is just average folks getting pissed on while the bulk of our functional economy is driven by average folks consuming goods, not the stock market.

Originally posted by snowdragon
I hate to break it to you but the USA could probably take lessons on a more balanced system then our praise capitalism over all................more pieces of socialism would be massively better then our system that essentially is a snake swallowing its own tail. 😉

Just like trickle down economics is just average folks getting pissed on while the bulk of our functional economy is driven by average folks consuming goods, not the stock market.

Originally posted by snowdragon
I hate to break it to you but the USA could probably take lessons on a more balanced system then our praise capitalism over all................more pieces of socialism would be massively better then our system that essentially is a snake swallowing its own tail. 😉

Just like trickle down economics is just average folks getting pissed on while the bulk of our functional economy is driven by average folks consuming goods, not the stock market.

....and I hate to break it to you, dude, that capitalism will always be far superior to Marxism no matter how much snowflakes claim otherwise.

So sorry I triggered you by talking bad about such a shitty ideology. Even though I knew you were anti-Trump, I at least didn't think you were one of those Marxist crazies... don't worry, won't make that mistake again.

Capitalism is far from perfect but it's still the best economic system in the history of the world. Marxism certainly doesn't hold a candle to free market capitalism.

Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah, American corporatism is a form of tyranny and borderline feudalism, and is anathema to 'true' capitalism, imo

You do realize that "true capitalism" as you put it is prevalent in America, right? Corrupt corparitism isn't the only kind of capitalism in the country. And LoL if you think corparitism only exists in America.

I really hope you don't turn into pooty. He is always pathetically bashing the United States every chance he gets (obviously because he's jealous that it is far superior to his shitty country lol).

Originally posted by Quincy
Sort of - for example, if I work to become super rich - that's an earned advantage over lots of other folks. But if I were to have kids, they'd be born into that privilege. It's a privilege and an advantage.

Same thing as a kid born into an absolute slum - he's at a huge disadvantage.

Well said.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Again, intersectionality is the word you're looking for. In certain spaces, your identities could combine in such a way that normally privileged statuses like "white" or even "rich" could work against you. It's hard to discuss that though, when we have to convince you that something like male or white privilege exists at all. We get caught on this point and the talk never goes anywhere.

It's why I avoid bringing them up sometimes. People will acknowledge all manner of personal privilege right up until we get to the hot buttons: gender, race, and maybe religion. Then suddenly, normally sensible people scream "WOAH MAN! WHITE PRIVELEGE? STFU. I WORK HARD!"

No one is accusing you of being evil human beings. We're talking about systems and structures.

Of course there are toxic women. Toxic masculinity is still a thing though.

It just got coined as a term at a different time than "toxic femininity" so they wound up with different names. Most critical theory would place "toxic femininity" under "benevolent sexism", which got its name earlier. There are spaces which enable negative female behavior from women who would take advantage of it. Female led **** shaming, for example.

The problem is, I generally only see this raised in response to toxic masculinity. It feels like an effort to silence criticism of problematic masculinity, rather than a genuine concern over problematic femininity. "Toxic masculinity? GTFO. Women are demons!"

I must agree with Sarah Haider when the comes to that. I think the reflex to jump to the aid of marginalized groups is a good thing. I think all of it stems from that, and I've found those same people are much more understanding in person. I just think social media, especially short-form platforms, are terrible places to have those discussions. You must be adept at condensing complex issues into a few words, and most are bad at it.

Hey, I agree with you.

Activism for a cause, I have nothing against. It's the horse and pony bs you get on network news, or the "activism" of overprivileged kids at universities who never wanted for anything in their lives I can't stand (And I especially hate how spineless supposed "authority figures" are in these settings. When an angry mob tells you to move, you tell the mob "No. YOU move."😉

And more then anything else, I can't stand the political weaponizing. The "Just call then a racist", or "Call them a socialist".

Literally no one breaks ranks and says "Ok guys, lets be fair about this." Everyones complicit, from the actors to the apathetic audience.

Originally posted by Scribble
This is my problem, though: acting as you "lucked out" by being straight is to say that it's better to be straight. That's just such a horrible way to look at it.

Both of those above statements are racist. I don't think black people should feel like they were "born unlucky" because they are black.

How are people not understanding how this entire way of thinking is awful? Nobody should feel lucky they were born one race or another. We can accept the difficulties or racism that black people (or other minorities) face without starting this whole idea of "luck" and "privilege". As I have said, I think the goal is noble, but the tactics are toxic and bad for long-term race relations, because if we do eventually level out society and black people don't face these discriminations, we'll all have conditioned 'privilege' into our psyches, and it won't just go away. It will create dissonance, resentment and various other pathologies.

It's the wrong way of looking at it, and I'm still not subscribing to it.

No, it is acknowledging that straight people are better off than sexual minorities in a heterosexist society.

I would not trade places with a black man, even a rich one, not because there is something wrong with being black, because America is racist.

That is where intersectionality comes in. A wealthy black man may have class and gender priviledges that confer advantages to him in certain situations. But in the context of racial profiling, those priviledges are entirely negated.

Wealthy black men are routinely harrassed for driving their own cars or entering their own homes, because people with racial biases cannot conceive that a black man can legitimately own those things. And in those instances, his wealth and his gender did not insulate him from the consequences of racism.

We do not create a more equal society by ignoring that inequality exists.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, it is acknowledging that straight people are better off than sexual minorities in a heterosexist society.

I would not trade places with a black man, even a rich one, not because there is something wrong with being black, because America is racist.

That is where intersectionality comes in. A wealthy black man may have class and gender priviledges that confer advantages to him in certain situations. But in the context of racial profiling, those priviledges are entirely negated.

Wealthy black men are routinely harrassed for driving their own cars or entering their own homes, because people with racial biases cannot conceive that a black man can legitimately own those things. And in those instances, his wealth and his gender did not insulate him from the consequences of racism.

We do not create a more equal society by ignoring that inequality exists.

I wouldn't say that lack of privileges in one area negates other privileges, they go alongside each other. 'Racial privileges' would obviously be most pronounced because they are centred on physical appearance. Although I don't doubt even wealthy black men suffer racial discrimination at times, I do doubt that experience is true of every wealthy black man, or even every black man; that's why I dislike the all-or-nothing attitude of privilege, as it doesn't take into account personal experience, it just blankets an entire demographic as having an identical experience due to a shared trait. Comes from a good place, and is rooted in reality, but quickly falls prey to small-minded theorising that I don't think will be useful in the long run. I think at the end of the day that telling a white man in poverty that he needs to check his privilege and accept that he is better off than a black millionaire is never going to fly, especially in how the theory is usually posited.

However, overall, I think you explained this well, and it's given me some stuff to mull over. I've been trying to find more testimonies from black Americans, mixed-race Americans, and interracial American couples, to help build a picture of what race relations in America are truly like (which is obviously difficult due to the size and diversity of the country).

Also, a side comment, I've been surprised by our interactions, Adam. When I was mostly just lurking the GDF, you always came across as a troll to me, but when speaking to you personally, I've always found you've been cordial and pretty refined with your arguments and points. Although we clearly have deeply contrasting personalities — and, as such, politics — you often put your arguments in a way that I find effective and intelligent, and it sometimes helps me see the issue from another perspective.

Originally posted by Scribble
This is my problem, though: acting as you "lucked out" by being straight is to say that it's better to be straight. That's just such a horrible way to look at it.

Both of those above statements are racist. I don't think black people should feel like they were "born unlucky" because they are black.

How are people not understanding how this entire way of thinking is awful? Nobody should feel lucky they were born one race or another. We can accept the difficulties or racism that black people (or other minorities) face without starting this whole idea of "luck" and "privilege". As I have said, I think the goal is noble, but the tactics are toxic and bad for long-term race relations, because if we do eventually level out society and black people don't face these discriminations, we'll all have conditioned 'privilege' into our psyches, and it won't just go away. It will create dissonance, resentment and various other pathologies.

It's the wrong way of looking at it, and I'm still not subscribing to it.

Originally posted by eThneoLgrRnae
Capitalism is far from perfect but it's still the best economic system in the history of the world. Marxism certainly doesn't hold a candle to free market capitalism.

And hopefully, we continue to evolve as we learn more.

A lot of people worded their position much more clearly than I have, I need to learn more on the topic of intersectionality as it came up a lot.