----------- !!! Herald [Low & Mid] Tourney !!!! -----------

Originally posted by Smurph
There was no new argument. I was just disagreeing with your interpretation of your own scan, which you repeatedly emphasized:

You kept arguing that Batman qualified John’s shields as being immune to infinitely small attacks, but the scan you provided as proof said “infinitely thin and sharp”, not “infinitely small”. So you wanted the judges to agree that a shield that could block an infinitely thin attack must also block all infinitely small attacks. I didn’t agree, and I explained why.

Based only on what was posted and argued, I think it would be harder to keep out Ray Palmer than it is to block that 2D slash from the Royal Flush Gang. It wasn’t about a particular argument from Supermutant - your evidence was just a bit weak, imo.

So wait.

Your initial reply was that it wasn't your job to accept my points UNLESS Supermutant argued against them.

Now you are saying Supermutant DIDN'T actually make a specific argument against it, but you disagree with it anyway? WTH?

If Super disagreed with my interpretation, then he would have argued against it, and I would have countered and destroyed his argument. It is NOT your job to make his arguments for him. You then keep making the point that 'based on what was posted and argued' - but Super never argued that 2d lines =/= 2d points.

Ultimately, your judgement was based not on what Super argued, but on your own feeling. Which isn't based on anything presented by Super, despite what you say.

It's like giving a ruling and saying 'well, Super and DS both make good points, but I don't think any of the scans used were canon, and even though nobody mentioned canonicity, and nobody gets the chance to even argue against it (because nobody brought it up), I will say they are all non canon/alt. reality characters'.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So wait.

Your initial reply was that it wasn't your job to accept my points UNLESS Supermutant argued against them.

Now you are saying Supermutant DIDN'T actually make a specific argument against it, but you disagree with it anyway? WTH?

Judges have to read the arguments and the scans and decide which arguments are well supported. All that I did was note that the words on the page didn’t match up with your own summary of the scan. If you had other proof to better support your point, you should have posted it.

This is why we post scans in battle zones. So judges read them.

And Supermutant did argue that blocking a strike from the RFG wasn’t the same as blocking the Atom.

Originally posted by Smurph
These statements aren’t contradictory.

Judges have to read the arguments and the scans and decide which arguments are well supported. All that I did was note that the words on the page didn’t match up with your own summary of the scan. If you had other proof to better support your point, you should have posted it.

This is why we post scans in battle zones. So judges read them.

I signed up for a BZ against Supermutant. Not Supermutant and Smurph. You inserting yourself and making arguments for Supermutant isn't your job as judge.

The fact that even Phil is coming in here and arguing against it,a OWS the faulty nature of your ruling.

Originally posted by Smurph
And Supermutant did argue that blocking a strike from the RFG wasn’t the same as blocking the Atom.

Please quote the full argument from Supermutant, and point out where it pertains to 2d lines =/= 2d points (which is apparently the argument that sways you).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here is the thing.

Supermutant NEVER argues against my scans, using the point you used in your ruling. To wit:

Nowhere does Supermutant argue this. If so, please quote it. Supermutant's arguments against my shield were:

That the RF Gang were jobbers.
That Atom has blocked a 2D character before.
That is was an 'energy field' not a shield.

My counters being:
It was BATMAN'S words, not the RF Gang's
Atom's 2D character was NOWHERE near infinite (and even showed the comparison)
This was a completely new argument that was introduced in his summary post, which isn't allowed.

But YOUR argument, that 2d line =/= 2d points, was not argued by Supermutant. Hence, inadmissible.

So I haven't responded to this until now b/c, I was hoping that this was tabled until at least after the Finals OPs are posted but anyways.

1. Not just jobbers but dumb the RFG never uses the tech/powers they steal correctly. As oppose to Ray who is the master at the shrinking with tons of experience and a genius intellect as well.
2. I didn't state Ray blocked a 2d character, but that he beat a 2d character by shrinking.

Below the Atom beat a 2-d man specifically by shrinking down in size. Which is the exact same thing the Atom is doing against John’s shield.

There are other things that can be addressed as well although I wont do it until after the final match starts or ends.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I signed up for a BZ against Supermutant. Not Supermutant and Smurph. You inserting yourself and making arguments for Supermutant isn't your job as judge.

The fact that even Phil is coming in here and arguing against it,a OWS the faulty nature of your ruling.

This doesn't help your case at all. Phil as a contestant especially should have never involved himself until this was over. His opinion isn't any more or less valid than the judges or whoever comes in here with one.

I feel like that scan shouldn't have even been posted as it clearly is an energy field and not a shield, but I didn't need or want another participant or anyone else to comment on it win or lose.

Originally posted by Supermutant
So I haven't responded to this until now b/c, I was hoping that this was tabled until at least after the Finals OPs are posted but anyways.

1. Not just jobbers but dumb the RFG never uses the tech/powers they steal correctly. As oppose to Ray who is the master at the shrinking with tons of experience and a genius intellect as well.

2. I didn't state Ray blocked a 2d character, but that he beat a 2d character by shrinking.

See how I counter and debate? You make a point, I make a counter-point, you counter. NotI make a point, Smurph makes a counter point, I am unable to because....it's not an open thread, but a BZ.

I never felt I needed to specifically state that vertical shrinking is not the same as horizontal shrinking. It seems common sense to me. All my posts from beginning to end is focused on the Ray slipping through John's shield by shrinking. It was funny too me that you kept focusing on the RFG not be able to cut through which is something I wasn't doing at all and is no way similar.

3. And the entire scan is moot b/c as you continue to state with Batman words, he clearly told John to make an energy field and not a shield. The only shield allowed are prep shield and you clearly did not create an energy field doing the BZ. I also do not see how you can see its a new argument when you are the one who posted the scan and think in all three of your posts, and its a rule that we can only create prep shields. You enter the scan in the BZ and you can't say to the judges they can only look at one part of it, just because I didn't mention it in my second post but I did in my third. Scans are always under scrutiny and the same Batman in the same comic panel who said infinitely sharp also said energy field. Anyway I didn't read where any of the judges factored this into their decision but they should have.

But by-the-by - shields are energy fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_(fiction)

There are other things that can be addressed as well although I wont do it until after the final match starts or ends.

Originally posted by Supermutant
This doesn't help your case at all. Phil as a contestant especially should have never involved himself until this was over. His opinion isn't any more or less valid than the judges or whoever comes in here with one.

I feel like that scan shouldn't have even been posted as it clearly is an energy field and not a shield, but I didn't need or want another participant or anyone else to comment on it win or lose.

Two points:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_(fiction)
2. Should've made that point earlier, rather than hiding it in the last post. Contestants, beware that Super will hide his perceived 'trump' card (even though it isn't) in the last post, thus denying you the chance to argue against it.

Despite numerous posts saying that the last post is a summary only - no new arguments.

Smurph made up an argument that Supermutant never made.

Thus, Darksaint was never able to counter that argument [which can be easily done so, once you understand physics]. In essence, a swaying argument was inserted into the match, by a judge, making it impossible for Darksaint to not only address, but also losing him the match.

There was enough time for Supermutant to "interpret" the scan and make the argument in multiple-posts -- he didn't need a judge to do so for him.

I understand Saint's frustration [and I'm quite sure others do too, but they'd prefer not to post it in this thread], but it happened, and it is what it is, we don't revert verdicts.

---

With that said, I think we should move on. This won't go anywhere.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Smurph made up an argument that Supermutant never made.

Thus, Darksaint was never able to counter that argument [which can be easily done so, once you understand physics]. In essence, a swaying argument was inserted into the match, by a judge, making it impossible for Darksaint to not only address, but also losing him the match.

There was enough time for Supermutant to "interpret" the scan and make the argument in multiple-posts -- he didn't need a judge to do so for him.

I understand Saint's frustration [and I'm quite sure others do too, but they'd prefer not to post it in this thread], but it happened, and it is what it is, we don't revert verdicts.

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With that said, I think we should move on. This won't go anywhere.

No, I didn’t make up an argument. I just read the scan and disagreed with Darksaint’s repeated summary of it.

Galan, feel free to replace me as a judge for the finals. I obviously don’t think my votes are misplaced, but this is already a chore without the tantrums and now it’s derailing the thread.

You made a counter argument that mutant never made [and he specifically targeted Saint's with multiple arguments but none of them yours]. Darksaint would most likely have a counter for what you said... but he never said it, because he cannot rebutt a judge.

This is post mortem so it doesn't really matter, but I've just said my opinion. I'm not attacking you as a judge, I'm talking about the importance of the central point of a debate being decided by arguments that stem from a judge.

Agree to disagree etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Which I specifically agreed with, and pointed out it was BATMAN who said it was infinitely sharp.

exactly its not Batman who is infinitely sharp but the RFG who are constantly, consistently and grossly inadequate with tech/abilities. They always underperformed and aren't smart enough to use things effectively

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Which I specifically countered, and even showed scans of how it wasn't applicable to something infinitely sharp.

See how I counter and debate? You make a point, I make a counter-point, you counter. [b]NotI make a point, Smurph makes a counter point, I am unable to because....it's not an open thread, but a BZ.[/B]

that's your opinion not a counter that the judges have to agree with. especially since what the RFG is doing is not at all slipping through the molecules, they are cutting through hence sharp. Ray isn't sharp but intangible, weightless, and as small as he wants to be. You keep trying to equate your counter with Ray and its not the same thing. You had a lot of "counters" that were just flat out wrong.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

It blocked them from slipping through the shield.

It blocked them from cutting through the shield.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Wait, when did you make this argum-oh, that's right, in the last post which is specifically a summary only, and NOT the place for new arguments - which I specifically said in MY summary, and asked the judges to watch out for.

But by-the-by - shields are energy fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_(fiction)

Not a new argument its directly taken from your scan that you presented 3 times. I stated that you never showed John making a 360 degree shield that could stop Ray from slipping through. Also, I have no doubt that John can make an energy field which can be used as shield but you didn't. Normal prep shields from John the ones you showed blocking black holes and supernovas certainly aren't energy field. Batman words remember that you rely on so highly he did not say shield he said energy field. One can make a shield of bricks but Batman was specific.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

But you didn't. So moot.

More importantly I don't care too. But your are acting like everything you showed was accurate and true and could only be interpreted the way you want. Which is far from it.

Like I stated I will be happy to go over it in detail later.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Two points:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_(fiction)
2. Should've made that point earlier, rather than hiding it in the last post. Contestants, beware that Super will hide his perceived 'trump' card (even though it isn't) in the last post, thus denying you the chance to argue against it.

Despite numerous posts saying that the last post is a summary only - no new arguments.

or You can just read your own scan and make an energy field.

tbh here I'm being very restrained. Your counters were horribly wrong and misleading but you received major props for it by the judges. I also do feel like Smurph is being attack for his decision as a judge. Pr isn't being attack nor should he. He said there was somethings from me that he just didn't buy.

My response is that its my job to satisfy the judge and not the other way around. So for him I should have been more convincing. I'm certainly not going to attack him because he didn't see things my way.

Furthermore we all agreed on the judges beforehand so now I'm moving on.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You made a counter argument that mutant never made [and he specifically targeted Saint's with multiple arguments but none of them yours]. Darksaint would most likely have a counter for what you said... but he never said it, because he cannot rebutt a judge.

This is post mortem so it doesn't really matter, but I've just said my opinion. I'm not attacking you as a judge, I'm talking about the importance of the central point of a debate being decided by arguments that stem from a judge.

Agree to disagree etc.

Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. But as a judge I need to consider all the arguments, which includes considering whether they make sense (in my opinion) on their own merits. Darksaint never persuaded me that blocking the RFG was proof of his ability to block the Atom, and the onus was on him to do that. He also didn’t provide other sufficient proof of John’s ability to keep out the Atom, so the point became decisive.

My last two cents on this: the only reason this is being talked about is because I bothered to write a lengthy judgment about the match and explain my reasoning. If I kept things brief, as the others did, then there would be less ammo for the loser to throw a fit. So maybe that’s the right approach. It’s ironic because I’ve had Darksaint previously judge my matches by saying “I vote for X” with no explanation at all.

Anyways, this is annoying, and I’m definitely not interested in doing this again after the finals, so count me out for the next round.

This is disappointing Smurph and I hope you reconsider. You have voted for me and against me in the past (same as PR) so its curious that you are being (falsely) accused of making my arguments for me now. I suspect Dambo will be a target next since we are know the common theme now..

I'm quickly losing my enthusiasm for this but since I'm almost finish my OP, I'll let it ride and entertain.

So who are the judges this time?

Originally posted by Supermutant
exactly its not Batman who is infinitely sharp but the RFG who are constantly, consistently and grossly inadequate with tech/abilities. They always underperformed and aren't smart enough to use things effectively

I never said Batman was sharp....I said Batman was the one who said the attack was sharp. Seems like they were pretty effective.

that's your opinion not a counter that the judges have to agree with. especially since what the RFG is doing is not at all slipping through the molecules, they are cutting through hence sharp. Ray isn't sharp but intangible, weightless, and as small as he wants to be. You keep trying to equate your counter with Ray and its not the same thing. You had a lot of "counters" that were just flat out wrong.

I don't think you understand what sharpness is. But again, you didn't bring any of this up in your post.

It blocked them from cutting through the shield.

Not a new argument its directly taken from your scan that you presented 3 times. I stated that you never showed John making a 360 degree shield that could stop Ray from slipping through. Also, I have no doubt that John can make an energy field which can be used as shield but you didn't. Normal prep shields from John the ones you showed blocking black holes and supernovas certainly aren't energy field. Batman words remember that you rely on so highly he did not say shield he said energy field. One can make a shield of bricks but Batman was specific.

More importantly I don't care too. But your are acting like everything you showed was accurate and true and could only be interpreted the way you want. Which is far from it.

Like I stated I will be happy to go over it in detail later.

Originally posted by Supermutant
or [b]You can just read your own scan and make an energy field. [/B]

Had you said your point in post2, I would have easily rebutted. GLs make energy fields, lol.

Originally posted by MrMind
I didn't agree with my rulings too, all my best scans was saved for final post that was suited to deal with phil's strategies and it just got brushed off

I don't think I'd win but I just want people take more time to write better ruling posts

that's why i wanted 5 judges

Well, I for one read your posts (including the final one). It just didn't sway me. Sorry.

This is like a tourney inside a tourney