X-men vs Justice League; whos the better written team

Originally posted by meep-meep
Absolutely!!!

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Originally posted by StyleTime
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The amount of otherwise good writers that **** up when handling X-Men has to be a record or something.

But maybe that's what makes those quality X-Books so special. Reading a well-executed X-Men story is like--

Exactly. It's like breaking a world record. Not everyone can do it, but when someone does? You take notice.

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah it really depended on the era. I liked the 90's X-Men for the most part. They fell off around 2000-2010. I really enjoyed the Claremont era when Marc Silvestri, and later when Jim Lee sketched the title. Good times.

That's the thing I want to clarify too. I like 90s X-Men. I was in my teens when Onslaught happened and I got to read it in trade form and I was in love with it. A crossover where Xavier and Magneto combine to make a new villain? The X-Men in shambles? ****ing Hank Pym ****ing headbutting sentinels (who are incidentally one of my favourite villains)? I loved that shit.

But when I re-read it now, I can see the obvious gap in quality between it and the likes of Claremont's work. It's a crossover, so some leeway has to be allowed, but even in the 90s, we were allowed to expect better from crossovers because writers were supposed to be that good.

And then Morrison came along and, as much as I hate Quitely's artwork, I consider Morrison's X-Men to be top five X-Men runs of all time. Definitely.

Then we got Whedon that, while short and a bit weird, was still really good imo.

Who else did X-Men get in the 00s?

-Brubaker? I liked his run, but let's be fair, it was largely hit and miss.
-Same goes for Gillen.
-Same goes for Carey.
-Fraction was god-awful.
-Kyle and Yost? They were okay I guess. As much as I might have enjoyed parts of the X-Force book, it is at least partially responsible for the character mauling Cyclops got.

There are X-Men arcs I've enjoyed since Whedon left. The vampire one. Uncanny X-Force. Hell, I was even starting to enjoy Hickman's one after having initial doubts, only to get turned off by Hickman being Hickman, and morphing the characters to fit the story in frankly ridiculous ways.

Originally posted by -Pr-

-Fraction was god-awful.

Funny thing is, he can write when he really wants to.

And who we got after Fraction? Oh, yeah. Bendis.

Originally posted by -Pr-
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Exactly. It's like breaking a world record. Not everyone can do it, but when someone does? You take notice.

That's the thing I want to clarify too. I like 90s X-Men. I was in my teens when Onslaught happened and I got to read it in trade form and I was in love with it. A crossover where Xavier and Magneto combine to make a new villain? The X-Men in shambles? ****ing Hank Pym ****ing headbutting sentinels (who are incidentally one of my favourite villains)? I loved that shit.

But when I re-read it now, I can see the obvious gap in quality between it and the likes of Claremont's work. It's a crossover, so some leeway has to be allowed, but even in the 90s, we were allowed to expect better from crossovers because writers were supposed to be that good.

And then Morrison came along and, as much as I hate Quitely's artwork, I consider Morrison's X-Men to be top five X-Men runs of all time. Definitely.

Then we got Whedon that, while short and a bit weird, was still really good imo.

Who else did X-Men get in the 00s?

-Brubaker? I liked his run, but let's be fair, it was largely hit and miss.
-Same goes for Gillen.
-Same goes for Carey.
-Fraction was god-awful.
-Kyle and Yost? They were okay I guess. As much as I might have enjoyed parts of the X-Force book, it is at least partially responsible for the character mauling Cyclops got.

There are X-Men arcs I've enjoyed since Whedon left. The vampire one. Uncanny X-Force. Hell, I was even starting to enjoy Hickman's one after having initial doubts, only to get turned off by Hickman being Hickman, and morphing the characters to fit the story in frankly ridiculous ways.

X-Men excels in teamwork, character drama, character building, and team dynamics more than any group.
M-Day rolling into Utopia was quality for all X-Titles. Also I feel like Milligan gets a bad wrap. The Draco was trash but everything else was gold. The dementia of Golgotha and that purge arc? ****ing ASTONISHING?! Mwah. Then Bendis ruined them. All through to IvX was so-so at best. Blue, Red, that iteration of Astonishing. It was like Stockholm syndrome and we were getting better than what we used to. And now Hickman is giving them a much needed revamping in wide and wondrous ways.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Funny thing is, he can write when he really wants to.

And who we got after Fraction? Oh, yeah. Bendis.

I intentionally left him out because there's no need to mention that trainwreck at all. It would just get me depressed otherwise.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
X-Men excels in teamwork, character drama, character building, and team dynamics more than any group.
M-Day rolling into Utopia was quality for all X-Titles. Also I feel like Milligan gets a bad wrap. The Draco was trash but everything else was gold. The dementia of Golgotha and that purge arc? ****ing ASTONISHING?! Mwah. Then Bendis ruined them. All through to IvX was so-so at best. Blue, Red, that iteration of Astonishing. It was like Stockholm syndrome and we were getting better than what we used to. And now Hickman is giving them a much needed revamping in wide and wondrous ways.

I agree with your first line. It's actually why bar none, X-Men is my favourite comic book "franchise", and apart from Superman basically creating the genre, X-Men is, for me, the single-greatest comic-book concept ever created.

M-Day? It was okay, but again, I never said all of the 00s was bad. I said it had ups and downs, which it did. Just like Justice League did.

As far as Milligan goes... I don't remember him being incredibly good or bad. He just got stuck following Morrison.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I intentionally left him out because there's no need to mention that trainwreck at all. It would just get me depressed otherwise.

Fraction + Land = some lulzcontent, at least.

Bendis + Bachalo = brain and eyes both bleeding at the same time.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Fraction + Land = some lulzcontent, at least.

Bendis + Bachalo = brain and eyes both bleeding at the same time.

True.

Now I'm just getting annoyed though, remembering all the times I tried to dive back in, telling myself "no, it's not as bad as you remember, give it a chance" only to get shat all over.

And I still remember how psyched I was for Ellis on Astonishing after Whedon left. And how disappointed I was after what, the first dozen pages of the first issue.

I liked Ellis' run.

But I admit he didn't have anything "epic" planned, just a few stories not connected with each other.

Whedon operated on a larger scale.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I liked Ellis' run.

But I admit he didn't have anything "epic" planned, just a few stories not connected with each other.

Whedon operated on a larger scale.

I remember reading his interviews before the books came out, and how much hope I had for it. It just kinda fell flat for me. It was like he had good ideas, just... the execution lacked.

After Ellis was done with his arcs... Marvel decided it'd be a good idea to pick Way as the new Astonishing writer 😘

...Eww.

Didn't Ellis have Cyclops straight up execute someone?
And turn Forge into a genocidal maniac?

Who? I only remember him wasting a Krakoa-like creature.

Forge likes to go insane every once in a while. He had good intentions, trying to find a way to make more mutants after the M-day, iirc.

Originally posted by abhilegend
😂

So edgy dude. Really kewl.

X-Men has NEVER followed JLA storytelling it's always been its own lane which is why it's been consistently good so much so that marvel had to sabotage and damn near attempt to kill the book off just to slow it's profitability over it's showcase team, the avengers. Grant Morrison excels at odd ball grandiose storytelling which is why animal man, doom patrol, and new X-Men were some of his best writing. The rest of that shit was meh to garbage level.

You know, there are comics I have no love for. Comics I didn't particularly enjoy when I read them or, when re-reading them, found them to be unsatisfying. This includes stuff like Watchmen and Frank Miller's Batman.

But I'd never call them garbage.

If you didn't like Morrison's JLA, I'd think that was fine. But calling them objectively bad? FFS, that's lunacy.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
X-Men has NEVER followed JLA storytelling it's always been its own lane which is why it's been consistently good so much so that marvel had to sabotage and damn near attempt to kill the book off just to slow it's profitability over it's showcase team, the avengers. Grant Morrison excels at odd ball grandiose storytelling which is why animal man, doom patrol, and new X-Men were some of his best writing. The rest of that shit was meh to garbage level.

Stay edgy.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You know, there are comics I have no love for. Comics I didn't particularly enjoy when I read them or, when re-reading them, found them to be unsatisfying. This includes stuff like Watchmen and Frank Miller's Batman.

But I'd never call them garbage.

If you didn't like Morrison's JLA, I'd think that was fine. But calling them objectively bad? FFS, that's lunacy.

The whole asmodel storyline was just extremely unimpressive to me and I wasn't too fond of them pushing Superman to the forefront in parts where zauriel should have been pushed more. Everything else about his run was just ok with nothing really memorable about it.

So we went from garbage to just ok?

Keep it up boys!

Is Bazie really our sole source of entertainment these days?

Pretty much. Carv is boring now. Even Wonder Man has stopped posting random crap. cdtm tries, but it's too low effort.