The Rights Struggle with Science.

I've been trying to understand right wing posters and right wingers generally and why they take conspiracy theories over facts. I read this and it resonated with me. We see these same behaviours on KMC daily. One look at the Corona virus thread and these issues will strike anyone with half a brain like a wet haddock in the face. Perhaps they are not gaslighting, perhaps these people just like their own wacky narratives over facts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/05/04/listen-doctors/

Democracy Dies in Darkness

Opinions
Trumpers are resistant to experts — even their own
Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, arrives before President Trump speaks at a briefing in the Rose Garden on April 27, 2020.
Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, arrives before President Trump speaks at a briefing in the Rose Garden on April 27, 2020. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)
Image without a caption
Opinion by
Jennifer Rubin
Columnist
May 4, 2020 at 12:45 p.m. GMT+1
It has never been clear why right-wingers think that climate experts, trained for years in the hard sciences, are some left-wing cabal trying to pull a fast one on the industrial world — but the climate-change deniers no doubt will have some explanation. They likewise seem suspicious of epidemiologists, physicians, public health professionals and anyone who can speak from a position of authority on the pandemic. That’s a shame, given the dangerous consequences of pandemic denial and the plethora of sane advice coming even from current and past advisers to President Trump.
On Fox News Sunday, Deborah Birx — accused from time to time of assuaging President Trump’s ego at the expense of accuracy — pulled no punches. Chris Wallace asked about Michigan, where gun-toting protesters bearing Confederate and Nazi symbols screamed inches from the faces of police officers and media. They did not wear masks and did not practice social distancing. Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, was emphatic: “It’s devastatingly worrisome to me personally because if they go home and infect their grandmother or their grandfather who has a co-morbid condition and they have a serious or a very — or an unfortunate outcome, they will feel guilty for the rest of our lives,” Birx said. “So we need to protect each other at the same time we’re voicing our discontent.”

Birx’s boss had dubbed these some “very good people” and previously seemed to encourage such protests (Liberate Michigan!). Whatever advice Birx might offer is diluted by Trump’s enthusiastic defense of the people who are anything but “good,” but rather endanger others and attempt to intimidate democratically elected officials.

Democracy Dies in Darkness

Opinions
Trumpers are resistant to experts — even their own
Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, arrives before President Trump speaks at a briefing in the Rose Garden on April 27, 2020.
Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, arrives before President Trump speaks at a briefing in the Rose Garden on April 27, 2020. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)
Image without a caption
Opinion by
Jennifer Rubin
Columnist
May 4, 2020 at 12:45 p.m. GMT+1
It has never been clear why right-wingers think that climate experts, trained for years in the hard sciences, are some left-wing cabal trying to pull a fast one on the industrial world — but the climate-change deniers no doubt will have some explanation. They likewise seem suspicious of epidemiologists, physicians, public health professionals and anyone who can speak from a position of authority on the pandemic. That’s a shame, given the dangerous consequences of pandemic denial and the plethora of sane advice coming even from current and past advisers to President Trump.

Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
On Fox News Sunday, Deborah Birx — accused from time to time of assuaging President Trump’s ego at the expense of accuracy — pulled no punches. Chris Wallace asked about Michigan, where gun-toting protesters bearing Confederate and Nazi symbols screamed inches from the faces of police officers and media. They did not wear masks and did not practice social distancing. Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, was emphatic: “It’s devastatingly worrisome to me personally because if they go home and infect their grandmother or their grandfather who has a co-morbid condition and they have a serious or a very — or an unfortunate outcome, they will feel guilty for the rest of our lives,” Birx said. “So we need to protect each other at the same time we’re voicing our discontent.”

Birx’s boss had dubbed these some “very good people” and previously seemed to encourage such protests (Liberate Michigan!). Whatever advice Birx might offer is diluted by Trump’s enthusiastic defense of the people who are anything but “good,” but rather endanger others and attempt to intimidate democratically elected officials.

Opinion | The Trump-Fox News coronavirus misinformation campaign has real consequences
Speculation by Fox News and the president about covid-19 cures is making it more difficult for health officials to do their job, says media critic Erik Wemple. (Video: Joshua Carroll, Erik Wemple, Kate Woodsome/Photo: Alex Brandon / AP/The Washington Post)
Likewise, the former head of the Food and Drug Administration, Scott Gottlieb, warned that in many places now is not the time to loosen shelter-in-place ordinances. “Certainly cases are falling in the Tri-State region around New York City. But when you back out what’s happening in New York, and New York is really driving a lot of the national statistics because it was such a large outbreak, around the nation, hospitalizations and new cases continue to rise,” Gottlieb said on CBS News’ “Face the Nation.” "So there’s about 20 states where you see a rising number of new cases: Illinois, Texas, Maryland, Indiana, Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee have a lot of new cases on a daily basis. And so while mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as well as we expected.” Asked about projected fatalities that Trump lowballed at 60,000 (a figure we shot past in April), Gottlieb echoed Birx’s warning. “I think when you look out to the end of June, it’s probably the case that we’re going to get above 100,000 deaths nationally,” Gottlieb said. “I think the concerning thing here is that we’re looking at the prospect that this may be a persistent spread, that while the doubling time has come down dramatically to about 25 days.”

While many states were issuing directives to residents to stay home in March, officials in St. Johns County, home of St. Augustine, kept beaches open, even as the county’s medical examiner repeatedly said the county couldn’t handle a deadly outbreak, according to emails obtained by Columbia University’s Brown Institute for Media Innovation and reviewed by The Washington Post. …
[St. Johns County associate medical examiner Deanna A.] Oleske repeatedly warned officials in emails that her office is “in a dire situation” and she didn’t have the necessary staff, equipment and capacity to handle all the potential covid-19 deaths. She said her office, along with the county’s hospitals and funeral homes, could hold a total of 119 bodies. She asked for two trailers, one to store corpses and the other to perform autopsies.
But DeSantis, like his political soul mate Trump, cannot be bothered with scientific warnings, no matter how dire. (“DeSantis and other Florida officials defended the reopening of beaches, saying Floridians use beaches like parks, for exercise,” The Post reports. “DeSantis said he doesn’t see the point in strict enforcement, especially as Floridians are cooped up with quarantine measures in place.”)

Democracy Dies in Darkness

Opinions
Trumpers are resistant to experts — even their own
Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, arrives before President Trump speaks at a briefing in the Rose Garden on April 27, 2020.
Dr. Deborah Birx, White House coronavirus response coordinator, arrives before President Trump speaks at a briefing in the Rose Garden on April 27, 2020. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)
Image without a caption
Opinion by
Jennifer Rubin
Columnist
May 4, 2020 at 12:45 p.m. GMT+1
It has never been clear why right-wingers think that climate experts, trained for years in the hard sciences, are some left-wing cabal trying to pull a fast one on the industrial world — but the climate-change deniers no doubt will have some explanation. They likewise seem suspicious of epidemiologists, physicians, public health professionals and anyone who can speak from a position of authority on the pandemic. That’s a shame, given the dangerous consequences of pandemic denial and the plethora of sane advice coming even from current and past advisers to President Trump.

Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
On Fox News Sunday, Deborah Birx — accused from time to time of assuaging President Trump’s ego at the expense of accuracy — pulled no punches. Chris Wallace asked about Michigan, where gun-toting protesters bearing Confederate and Nazi symbols screamed inches from the faces of police officers and media. They did not wear masks and did not practice social distancing. Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, was emphatic: “It’s devastatingly worrisome to me personally because if they go home and infect their grandmother or their grandfather who has a co-morbid condition and they have a serious or a very — or an unfortunate outcome, they will feel guilty for the rest of our lives,” Birx said. “So we need to protect each other at the same time we’re voicing our discontent.”

Birx’s boss had dubbed these some “very good people” and previously seemed to encourage such protests (Liberate Michigan!). Whatever advice Birx might offer is diluted by Trump’s enthusiastic defense of the people who are anything but “good,” but rather endanger others and attempt to intimidate democratically elected officials.

Opinion | The Trump-Fox News coronavirus misinformation campaign has real consequences
Speculation by Fox News and the president about covid-19 cures is making it more difficult for health officials to do their job, says media critic Erik Wemple. (Video: Joshua Carroll, Erik Wemple, Kate Woodsome/Photo: Alex Brandon / AP/The Washington Post)
Likewise, the former head of the Food and Drug Administration, Scott Gottlieb, warned that in many places now is not the time to loosen shelter-in-place ordinances. “Certainly cases are falling in the Tri-State region around New York City. But when you back out what’s happening in New York, and New York is really driving a lot of the national statistics because it was such a large outbreak, around the nation, hospitalizations and new cases continue to rise,” Gottlieb said on CBS News’ “Face the Nation.” "So there’s about 20 states where you see a rising number of new cases: Illinois, Texas, Maryland, Indiana, Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee have a lot of new cases on a daily basis. And so while mitigation didn’t fail, I think it’s fair to say that it didn’t work as well as we expected.” Asked about projected fatalities that Trump lowballed at 60,000 (a figure we shot past in April), Gottlieb echoed Birx’s warning. “I think when you look out to the end of June, it’s probably the case that we’re going to get above 100,000 deaths nationally,” Gottlieb said. “I think the concerning thing here is that we’re looking at the prospect that this may be a persistent spread, that while the doubling time has come down dramatically to about 25 days.”

Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic

Nevertheless, Republican governors such as Ron DeSantis in Florida are throwing open the doors, and Trump continues to cheer for a swift return to business activity. The Post reports:

AD

While many states were issuing directives to residents to stay home in March, officials in St. Johns County, home of St. Augustine, kept beaches open, even as the county’s medical examiner repeatedly said the county couldn’t handle a deadly outbreak, according to emails obtained by Columbia University’s Brown Institute for Media Innovation and reviewed by The Washington Post. …
[St. Johns County associate medical examiner Deanna A.] Oleske repeatedly warned officials in emails that her office is “in a dire situation” and she didn’t have the necessary staff, equipment and capacity to handle all the potential covid-19 deaths. She said her office, along with the county’s hospitals and funeral homes, could hold a total of 119 bodies. She asked for two trailers, one to store corpses and the other to perform autopsies.
But DeSantis, like his political soul mate Trump, cannot be bothered with scientific warnings, no matter how dire. (“DeSantis and other Florida officials defended the reopening of beaches, saying Floridians use beaches like parks, for exercise,” The Post reports. “DeSantis said he doesn’t see the point in strict enforcement, especially as Floridians are cooped up with quarantine measures in place.”)

Opinion | The Trump-Fox News coronavirus misinformation campaign has real consequences
Speculation by Fox News and the president about covid-19 cures is making it more difficult for health officials to do their job, says media critic Erik Wemple. (Video: Joshua Carroll, Erik Wemple, Kate Woodsome/Photo: Alex Brandon / AP/The Washington Post)
But then, this has been the story from the get-go: Trump minimizing, ignoring and contradicting expert advice as part of his magical thinking that refuses to grapple with reality, especially when reality reflects poorly on him. (“The president sought to obscure major problems by trying to recast them as triumphs,” The Post reports. “He repeatedly boasted, for instance, that the United States has conducted more tests than any other country, even though the total of 6.75 million is a fraction of the 2 million to 3 million tests per day that many experts say is needed to safely reopen.”)

Where Trump leads, his cult will follow. Trump can rely on his base’s anti-science bent, especially when he drowns out or ignores his own advisers. If he does not pay attention, why should his followers?

It really resonates with me and I get where certain posters are coming from now...

I think this depends on what anyone would mean by "struggles with science." There seem to be some distinct concepts that have solid consensus in life and/or physical science that a good deal of right-leaning individuals and organizations take issue with but it's challenging to say if these are politically contingent (Newt Gingrich did advertisements with Nanci Pelosi concerning global warming and Margaret Thatcher called for action against it) or reflective of disbelief toward a perceived self-organizing consensus that has a progressive inclination.

I think the right seemingly has a consistent struggle with a little bit of both of what I've mentioned, especially concerning physical science. The major things, in a contemporary context, seem to be climate change, COVID-19, and anti-vax. The people who most often reject meaningful scientific consensus seemingly skew on the right side of the political aisles.

(Public perception/view on climate/energy)
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2019/11/25/u-s-public-views-on-climate-and-energy/

(Partisan divide on masks)
https://tompepinsky.com/2020/05/13/yes-wearing-a-mask-is-partisan-now/

(A rugged proxy for differences in vaccination opinions. NOTE: People can disapprove for mandatory vaccinations for reasons unrelated to skepticism about whether or not vaccines have efficacy so it stays a proxy)
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2015/07/01/chapter-1-patterns-underlying-public-views-about-science/

(BONUS: Partisan divide is evident even when it comes to whether or not COVID-19 was lab-made)
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/08/nearly-three-in-ten-americans-believe-covid-19-was-made-in-a-lab/

Originally posted by Gehenna
I think this depends on what anyone would mean by "struggles with science." There seem to be some distinct concepts that have solid consensus in life and/or physical science that a good deal of right-leaning individuals and organizations take issue with but it's challenging to say if these are politically contingent (Newt Gingrich did advertisements with Nanci Pelosi concerning global warming and Margaret Thatcher called for action against it) or reflective of disbelief toward a perceived self-organizing consensus that has a progressive inclination.

I think the right seemingly has a consistent struggle with a little bit of both of what I've mentioned, especially concerning physical science. The major things, in a contemporary context, seem to be climate change, COVID-19, and anti-vax. The people who most often reject meaningful scientific consensus seemingly skew on the right side of the political aisles.

(Public perception/view on climate/energy)
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2019/11/25/u-s-public-views-on-climate-and-energy/

(Partisan divide on masks)
https://tompepinsky.com/2020/05/13/yes-wearing-a-mask-is-partisan-now/

(A rugged proxy for differences in vaccination opinions. NOTE: People can disapprove for mandatory vaccinations for reasons unrelated to skepticism about whether or not vaccines have efficacy so it stays a proxy)
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2015/07/01/chapter-1-patterns-underlying-public-views-about-science/

(BONUS: Partisan divide is evident even when it comes to whether or not COVID-19 was lab-made)
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/08/nearly-three-in-ten-americans-believe-covid-19-was-made-in-a-lab/

The leftist trans movement escapes science.

Originally posted by Blakemore
The leftist trans movement escapes science.

Sure, so, in what way?

There was recent triggerdom over people saying only women can get cervical cancer.

This is a bait thread. Plain and simple.

I will bottom line it: no, the left is not better or worse than the right when it comes to science and their understanding/acceptance/whatever.

Originally posted by Gehenna
Sure, so, in what way?

to name a few

Originally posted by Surtur
There was recent triggerdom over people saying only women can get cervical cancer.

This is a bait thread. Plain and simple.

I will bottom line it: no, the left is not better or worse than the right when it comes to science and their understanding/acceptance/whatever.

All of the studies posted by Gehenna would suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by Blakemore
chromesomes
hormones
genetics
mutilation
mental health
body image dysphoria

to name a few

This is just a list of things.

So I'll rephrase my question based on this post by you:

Originally posted by Blakemore
The leftist trans movement escapes science.

In what specific ways does this particular movement supposedly "escape science?"

*yawn* @ this thread.

Coming from the side that thinks there are five dozens genders they have no room to be accusing others of being "science deniers".

This is just another "I'm so butthurt that people on the right don't agree with me and my BS 'science'!" thread.

Nah, we don't struggle with science at all.Leftists do. And this is like the fifth or sixth type of this thread that crybaby leftists have created since I joined the forum in which they accuse right-wingers of being anti-science or having "crazy beliefs".

They really need to look in the mirror at themselves instead of trying to project their own problems and shortcomings onto Conservatives.

Originally posted by Gehenna
This is just a list of things.

So I'll rephrase my question based on this post by you:

In what specific ways does this particular movement supposedly "escape science?"

Originally posted by Blakemore
I just told you.

No, you didn't. You listed a bunch of words in response to me asking you in what ways the leftist trans movement escapes science. I tried to rephrase my question to ask you how this movement (whatever movement you're referring to) specifically does this and you referred back to your list of random words.

Have you talked to someone else before this conversation?

They're not random words they're biological things that occur naturally in the body and transgender people don't look like normal people because they've ****ed up their genes, hormones, genitalia and mental health.

Originally posted by Blakemore
They're not random words they're biological things that occur naturally in the body and transgender people don't look like normal people because they've ****ed up their genes, hormones, genitalia and mental health.

Are not able to tell me in what ways the movement you mentioned escapes science?

Telling me that the things you listed are natural occurrences and that trans people don't "look like normal people" doesn't answer this question at all.

If you don't wish to answer my question, you could just tell me.

Originally posted by Surtur
There was recent triggerdom over people saying only women can get cervical cancer.

This is a bait thread. Plain and simple.

I will bottom line it: no, the left is not better or worse than the right when it comes to science and their understanding/acceptance/whatever.

👆

Originally posted by Gehenna
Are not able to tell me in what ways the movement you mentioned escapes science?

Telling me that the things you listed are natural occurrences and that trans people don't "look like normal people" doesn't answer this question at all.

If you don't wish to answer my question, you could just tell me.

Originally posted by Blakemore
Either you don't understand those terms, and basic human biology, or you're being difficult for the sake of difficulty.

What terms do you think I've failed to understand?

Also, I've been relatively straightforward and asked an incredibly simple question that you should be able to answer in regards to the initial claim you made in this thread.

Again, if you don't wish to answer, just say so.