Originally posted by Galan007
This recently came up in another thread, but #19/#20 originally confused Yamcha's energy signature with Goku's. And given that Gero had analyzed Goku's fight during the Saiyan saga(wherein he used KKx4), it means Yamcha's PL could have been as high as 32,000:
https://i.imgur.com/HtOCIfC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FoGyJd2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Yx5CXV2.jpg
*The fact that Yamcha was also stated to be "a good source of power" for the Androids also supports his PL being in that realm.Flip side, Nail's PL was 42,000... So unless Yamcha was capable of boosting his PL by at least an additional 10k, he doesn't have a chance here.
I don't know about all that. Your analysis is obviously accurate, but Gero also had a lot more info than that. I think 32,000/Saiyan saga Goku level is a HUGE lowball for Yamcha, at this point.
I mean, Gero wasn't stupid- he(and by extension, #19) had to have known Goku would be a lot stronger, by this point.
Even that is to assume that his info didn't take SSJ1 Goku/Frieza into account. I think it's probably more accurate to assume Yamcha was base Goku level, around the time he showed back up on Earth to fight Frieza, wouldn't you agree?
I mean, he DID include Frieza's DNA in Cell's biology, so I think that should put Yamcha probably closer to 1/50th of SSJ1 Goku, by that point(which is muuuch higher than 32,000). He was probably closer to 3 MILLION, than 32,000.
FTR, I'm not saying Yamcha would BE actually on the level of base Goku, just that I think maybe he'd be roughly close to the level of base Goku when he showed back up on Earth after beating Frieza the first time.
I think assuming his power level at this point is less than the one million range would be a big lowball.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaSure, but Gero still didn't have any info on Goku's power after the Saiyan saga, which was explicitly noted in the arc itself. Therefore the last recorded PL he would've had for Goku would have been when he peaked at 32k. Granted Gero may have accounted for *some* kind of power growth for Goku between sagas, but we don't know to what degree.
I don't know about all that. Your analysis is obviously accurate, but Gero also had a lot more info than that. I think 32,000/Saiyan saga Goku level is a HUGE lowball for Yamcha, at this point.I mean, Gero wasn't stupid- he(and by extension, #19) had to have known Goku would be a lot stronger, by this point.
Even that is to assume that his info didn't take SSJ1 Goku/Frieza into account. I think it's probably more accurate to assume Yamcha was base Goku level, around the time he showed back up on Earth to fight Frieza, wouldn't you agree?
I mean, he DID include Frieza's DNA in Cell's biology, so I think that should put Yamcha probably closer to 1/50th of SSJ1 Goku, by that point(which is muuuch higher than 32,000). He was probably closer to 3 MILLION, than 32,000.
Nah, none of the humans would have even approached base Goku back then, tbh. Even Krillin(the strongest earthling, per numerous sources) "only" had a PL of 75k by the end of the Namek saga -- and that was after his power had been unlocked by Guru. Frankly, I think even first form Freeza would have still effortlessly stomped Krillin by the Android saga... And Yamcha was logically tiers below Krillin by virtue of his latent power never being unlocked.
Originally posted by Galan007
Sure, but Gero still didn't have any info on Goku's power after the Saiyan saga, which was explicitly noted in the arc itself. Therefore the last recorded PL he would've had for Goku would have been when he peaked at 32k. Granted Gero may have accounted for *some* kind of power growth for Goku between sagas, but we don't know to what degree.
Oh yeah, it's fully possible that Gero may have accounted for Goku attaining huge gains that vastly surpassed where he was at during the Saiyan saga. Just saying that we don't know for sure.
But on that note, Yamcha's PL during the Saiyan saga was 1,480. So even if he 'only' boosted his PL to the point where it was on par with Saiyan saga peak Goku, that would still be a ~22x increase in power... Which is absolutely absurd for a human. Granted he trained under King Kai for a bit, but he never learned the more exotic abilities(like KaioKen) or anything like that.
Originally posted by Galan007
Oh yeah, it's fully possible that Gero may have accounted for Goku attaining huge gains that vastly surpassed where he was at during the Saiyan saga. Just saying that we don't know for sure.But on that note, Yamcha's PL during the Saiyan saga was 1,480. So even if he 'only' boosted his PL to the point where it was on par with Saiyan saga peak Goku, that would still be a ~22x increase in power... Which is absolutely absurd for a human. Granted he trained under King Kai for a bit, but he never learned the more exotic abilities(like KaioKen) or anything like that.
Also also, goku training for 6 days(and a zenkai boost) to push goku from 9000 to 90,000 when he fought Ginyu. Yamcha had three years of training and access to the same equipment goku had on his week long trip. If goku can squeeze in another 10X without relying on transforming or the kio ken, It’s not unreasonable to assume yamcha pushed from 32,000 to 320,000, which still puts him well below base frieza and goku, but still strong enough to help against the androids, which was his goal for those three years
It really just depends on Gero's estimations, which we do not know.
Gero said that Yamcha's power exceeded all known human parameters, so he never even planned on a human amassing the level of power that Yamcha(and the others) had, based on his analysis of their powers during the Saiyan saga. So likewise, he may have severely underestimated the type of growth the Saiyans could make in that timespan as well(even without the SS multipliers and off-world training.) I don't think Gero knew about Saiyan zenkais either.
IOW, Gero certainly knew that Goku's PL peaked at 32k during the Saiyan saga, but he may not have planned on him becoming much more powerful than that -- which would keep Yamcha around that mark as well. OR he may have planned on him becoming several times more powerful, like you're saying. I suppose both options are possible, because again, we simply don't know the type of growth that Gero accounted for.
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P8.6-7
Goku: “I see…But did you spy on the battle on Planet Namek too?”
No.20: “There was no need. By the battle with Vegeta and co., we had already completely grasped your power and techniques. We calculated that no matter how much you improved afterwards, considering your age, you wouldn’t have any increases as enormous as you had before…”
Gero didn't anticipate Goku getting that much stronger after the Saiyan arc.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Looking up the numbers, Recoome was 71000, while Nail was 42000.If we include filler then Yamcha easily wins, yeah, but without filler it is much more subjective.
The 71k figure isn't official afaik, in the story Ginyu said that Goku didn't need to be anything more than 60k to clap the rest of the Ginyu force. Considering that Goku literally one shot Recoome and Recoome didn't completely tank Vegeta (who was 30k) I'd say Recoome was closer to Nail's 42k.
Yeah, Vegeta's PL against Recoome was somewhere between 24k-30k, yet he was still able to deliver some minimal damage to Recoome initially. If Recoome actually had more than 2x the power of Vegeta, all of his attacks would have been casually no-sold(as we saw time and time again in DBZ.) Additionally, this was at a time where relatively small differences in PL still equated to massively one-sided stomps -- look at Vegeta(PL=24k) vs. Dodoria(PL=22k) for example.
Point being, Recoome could've had a PL of like 35k and still dominated Vegeta just as easily. I have my doubts that he was stronger than Nail.
https://dbpl.fandom.com/wiki/Power_levels_by_saga#Namek_Saga
This source states Recoome was 45,000.
But if you were to dismiss that as filler, then idk. Yamcha sucks, anyway.
Originally posted by Galan007
Sure, but Gero still didn't have any info on Goku's power after the Saiyan saga, which was explicitly noted in the arc itself. Therefore the last recorded PL he would've had for Goku would have been when he peaked at 32k. Granted Gero may have accounted for *some* kind of power growth for Goku between sagas, but we don't know to what degree.Nah, none of the humans would have even approached base Goku back then, tbh. Even Krillin(the strongest earthling, per numerous sources) "only" had a PL of 75k by the end of the Namek saga -- and that was after his power had been unlocked by Guru. Frankly, I think even first form Freeza would have still effortlessly stomped Krillin by the Android saga... And Yamcha was logically tiers below Krillin by virtue of his latent power never being unlocked.
But wait, this Gero had already created Cell- with Frieza's cells. Which he only could've obtained while Frieza was on Earth. Meaning he HAD to have seen Trunks and Goku go SSJ, and have at least something of a handle on their powers.
Also, you're misunderstanding what point I'm talking about- it was like 3 years between the android attack, and Trunks killing Frieza. I'm saying the way I interpreted Gero, was that he knew how strong Goku was right when he returned to Earth, as per him using Frieza's DNA in Cell's construction. Goku obviously got a lot stronger in the 3 years, but I took it as "Yamcha was mistaken for Goku, because he was around Goku's power level from when he had returned to Earth."
Because Gero DID say that even #19 alone could handle Goku as a SSJ. And that fortunately for them, Goku at SSJ DID fall within their calculations.
Meaning that for them to have mistaken Yamcha for Goku, he would've had to be within at least the realm of base Goku, by the time he came back from Namek.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But wait, this Gero had already created Cell- with Frieza's cells. Which he only could've obtained while Frieza was on Earth. Meaning he HAD to have seen Trunks and Goku go SSJ, and have at least something of a handle on their powers.Also, you're misunderstanding what point I'm talking about- it was like 3 years between the android attack, and Trunks killing Frieza. I'm saying the way I interpreted Gero, was that he knew how strong Goku was right when he returned to Earth, as per him using Frieza's DNA in Cell's construction. Goku obviously got a lot stronger in the 3 years, but I took it as "Yamcha was mistaken for Goku, because he was around Goku's power level from when he had returned to Earth."
Because Gero DID say that even #19 alone could handle Goku as a SSJ. And that fortunately for them, Goku at SSJ DID fall within their calculations.
Meaning that for them to have mistaken Yamcha for Goku, he would've had to be within at least the realm of base Goku, by the time he came back from Namek.
But Gero was completely unaware of Super Saiyan which meant he probably didn't have access to the same data that the spy robots for the Cell program did. And he did say that Goku's power exceeded their calculations, he just built himself and 19 so unreasonably high that Goku's power ended up falling within those parameters anyway.
Goku also didn't get back to earth until well after Freeza had been killed by Trunks -- iirc, there was like a 3 hour gap between Freeza's death and Goku's arrival.
So presumably Gero's bots had already harvested Freeza's genetic material and left the field before Goku came back and displayed his new power. Any way you slice it, Gero had absolutely no clue what Goku was capable of at the time.
