Yamcha vs. Nail

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku also didn't get back to earth until well after Freeza had been killed by Trunks -- iirc, there was like a 3 hour gap between Freeza's death and Goku's arrival.

So presumably Gero's bots had already harvested Freeza's genetic material and left the field before Goku came back and displayed his new power. Any way you slice it, Gero had absolutely no clue what Goku was capable of at the time.

I guess Gero had no idea what super saijan was despite Cell knowing what it was.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku also didn't get back to earth until well after Freeza had been killed by Trunks -- iirc, there was like a 3 hour gap between Freeza's death and Goku's arrival.

So presumably Gero's bots had already harvested Freeza's genetic material and left the field before Goku came back and displayed his new power. Any way you slice it, Gero had absolutely no clue what Goku was capable of at the time.

So after re-reading it, yes he was unaware of the Super Saiyan. He DID however say that Goku's power in SSJ1 was "within our calculations", and that even 19 could beat him 1 v 1. So that means he had prepared for Goku to be within that range of power.

Any way you slice it, he had a good idea of how strong Goku would be, and he still mistook Yamcha for him. Meaning Yamcha was probably around Goku's level, in base form at that point. Probably still a good bit weaker, sure, but not enough to say he was only Nail/Recoome level.

Not sure why I used the same verbiage as you, of "any way you slice it", lol. But it fits.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So after re-reading it, yes he was unaware of the Super Saiyan. He DID however say that Goku's power in SSJ1 was "within our calculations", and that even 19 could beat him 1 v 1. So that means he had prepared for Goku to be within that range of power.

Gero then goes on to state that he and #19 could still defeat Goku (because Gero had overbuilt the shit out of all the Androids):
https://ibb.co/P1CNsyD

But also keep in mind that Goku had the heart disease at this time, and as such, his power was massively weakened -- as noted by Piccolo, it was "nothing"(in comparison to what it was when Goku was healthy, obviously):
https://ibb.co/xL2PRqL
...Yet it still vastly exceeded anything that Gero accounted for. But that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Any way you slice it, he had a good idea of how strong Goku would be, and he still mistook Yamcha for him. Meaning Yamcha was probably around Goku's level, in base form at that point. Probably still a good bit weaker, sure, but not enough to say he was only Nail/Recoome level.

And remember, the last time Gero's bots had seen any of the Z Fighters in action was during the Saiyan saga -- when the strongest earthling was Tien, with a PL of 1,830, and the strongest overall fighter was Goku, with a PL of 32k. So even assuming Yamcha's PL had "just" increased to 32k by the Android saga, that would still equate to an increase of around 1,700%... Which, again, is still an astronomical boost in power for a human. Especially since Yamcha's potential was never unlocked(like Krillin's was), and he spent those 3 years basically training by himself.

tl;dr
I personally don't think that Gero really anticipated Goku(and especially the humans) becoming much more powerful between the Saiyan and Android sagas... And from my perspective, I certainly don't think that even Krillin(the strongest earthling) remotely approached the base Saiyans in power back then... Never mind Yamcha. But again, the argument all hinges on Gero's power calculations/estimations, which we simply do not know. As mentioned, the notion that Yamcha's PL could have far exceeded 32k is possible... I just disagree. /shrug

I don’t know if it’s an anime thing or a dub thing, but it might be worth pointing out that when goku came back to earth, he did ask yamcha to train with him piccolo and gohan, so it’s not unreasonable to assume he was at or around their namek levels, which went from around 200,000 to 1,000,000. Both of which push way beyond nail

Or at the very least, expected him to get to that level to make the training worth it for the others

I think you're reading too far into it, tbh. Piccolo, Krillin, and Yamcha are Goku's friends, so he did the friendly/polite thing and extended an offer for them to train with he and Gohan. Piccolo agreed, while Krillin and Yamcha refused(Yamcha explicitly refused because he didn't think he could keep up):
https://ibb.co/Y8yFz4s

But at least Krillin(who was already the strongest human by a large margin) went to train with Roshi, so it's reasonable to assume that his power would have increased substantially under the tutelage of someone like that.

Yamcha, on the other hand, evidently just did his own thing for those 3 years... So it's even harder for me to believe he would've gained some gargantuan boost in power like that by training solo. He's not Vegeta. /shrug

ive never been sure why so many people believe that the humans ever got their powers up to the millions range in dbz??

krillin and tien are the strongest humans by far, but i'd honestly be surprised if either of their powers had even surpassed 2nd form frieza by the buu arc.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
ive never been sure why so many people believe that the humans ever got their powers up to the millions range in dbz??

krillin and tien are the strongest humans by far, but i'd honestly be surprised if either of their powers had even surpassed 2nd form frieza by the buu arc.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
ive never been sure why so many people believe that the humans ever got their powers up to the millions range in dbz??

krillin and tien are the strongest humans by far, but i'd honestly be surprised if either of their powers had even surpassed 2nd form frieza by the buu arc.

Most of the shit you see online about the humans having PLs that high are based on filler scenes, or headcanon, or both.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil2
In canon, tien stalls stage 2 cell and blocks a blast from buu.

Tien starts off absolutely awestruck...damn near shitting his pants...at the power of a massively weakened/heart-disease-stricken SS Goku. Then shortly afterward in the same arc, he proceeds to momentarily push down/stall a being who was several times more powerful than Goku... cuz Kikoho. Good thing the villains don't know that technique or the Z Fighters would have been f*cked a long time ago, lol.

As for Tien deflecting a blast from Bootenks: it was cool and all, but way too overhyped, imo. The blast Bootenks fired(the one Tien deflected) was just meant to kill Satan and Dende, so it likely wasn't very powerful at all.

The kikokoh is a haxx0rz move. It doesn't actually hurt the opponent, it's just a stun move.

Put it this way. Yamcha is the stupid one, Krillen is the funny one, and Tien is the one with weird powers.

I thought yamcha was the pretty one

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil2
I thought yamcha was the pretty one

Pretty one, stupid one, one with weird powers.

Yamcha blows up in the begining of the fight cause he is Yamcha...

Originally posted by Galan007
If you just look at the manga at its associated canon material, then yeah, it's hard to believe the humans' PLs ever reached the millions-tier in DBZ. You *might* be able to make a case for Krillin(and to a lesser extent Tien), but even that's a bit ass-pulley tbh.

Most of the shit you see online about the humans having PLs that high are based on filler scenes, or headcanon, or both.

Originally posted by Estacado
Yamcha blows up in the begining of the fight cause he is Yamcha...

Yamcha against the Androids: Lost to Gero and takes Goku home before a fight even finishes.

Yamcha against Buu: Turned into Chocolate like the other losers.

Originally posted by Mendax
How could you even make a case for Krillin and Tien though? Krillins PL was only 13000 after Guru unlocked his power on Namek, and we have no idea where Tien was at (aside from being nothing to a weakened SSJ)

So if you take the 75k figured at face value(and I do, given the evidence at hand), then Krillin would 'only' have to increase his PL by ~13x to put him in the million-tier. That's obviously one hell of a jump, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility, imo, given that his potential was already unlocked and he spent years training with Roshi.

Tien is obviously much harder to gauge, because the last recorded PL we have for him was during the Saiyan saga. The only real 'proof' I have is his Kikoho showing against Semi-Perfect Cell -- I feel like he'd have to be in the million-tier to even have a shot at pulling something like that off, but I obviously can't say for sure. It's way more of an asspull, because you could just as easily chalk it up to PIS. /shrug

I really forgot about Yamcha. What was his peak power? Blowing a planet, that is easy for Yamcha. What is his peak power?

Originally posted by Galan007
That isn't accurate. When Goku powered up to SS, Gero explicitly stated that his power "far surpasses the calculated limits":
https://ibb.co/gPJKXcC

Gero then goes on to state that he and #19 could still defeat Goku (because Gero had overbuilt the shit out of all the Androids):
https://ibb.co/P1CNsyD

But also keep in mind that Goku had the heart disease at this time, and as such, his power was massively weakened -- as noted by Piccolo, it was "nothing"(in comparison to what it was when Goku was healthy, obviously):
https://ibb.co/xL2PRqL
...Yet it still vastly exceeded anything that Gero accounted for. But that's neither here nor there.

As I mentioned on the last page, Gero's sensors simply picked up a level of power that he deemed was beyond any known human parameters that he had accounted for:
https://ibb.co/jgn8cPj
Thus he wrongly assumed that it must be Goku by default.

And remember, the last time Gero's bots had seen any of the Z Fighters in action was during the Saiyan saga -- when the strongest earthling was Tien, with a PL of 1,830, and the strongest overall fighter was Goku, with a PL of 32k. So even assuming Yamcha's PL had "just" increased to 32k by the Android saga, that would still equate to an increase of around [b]1,700%... Which, again, is still an astronomical boost in power for a human. Especially since Yamcha's potential was never unlocked(like Krillin's was), and he spent those 3 years basically training by himself.

tl;dr
I personally don't think that Gero really anticipated Goku(and especially the humans) becoming much more powerful between the Saiyan and Android sagas... And from my perspective, I certainly don't think that even Krillin(the strongest earthling) remotely approached the base Saiyans in power back then... Never mind Yamcha. But again, the argument all hinges on Gero's power calculations/estimations, which we simply do not know. As mentioned, the notion that Yamcha's PL could have far exceeded 32k is possible... I just disagree. /shrug [/B]

Hm, very interesting- I think I was misremembering what Gero had said, but I can see where you're coming from. I also do think you're misunderstanding me though, I'm not saying Yamcha was like on the level of Goku after those three years, I just think it's not much of a stretch to say that after those 3 years, he was at least close to the level of base Goku when he showed back up, after those 3 years.

I definitely agree with you, that his power COULD be as low as the 30-40k range, but it could ALSO be as high as the range of a million or more. It's a pretty big range for what it could be, so I just see it as a lowball to put it any lower than at least a few hundred thousand, but I definitely see your point.

I guess it's really just a matter of perspective, at that point.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tien is obviously much harder to gauge, because the last recorded PL we have for him was during the Saiyan saga. The only real 'proof' I have is his Kikoho showing against Semi-Perfect Cell -- I feel like he'd have to be in the million-tier to even have a shot at pulling something like that off, but I obviously can't say for sure. It's way more of an asspull, because you could just as easily chalk it up to PIS. /shrug

Wasn't it stated back in Dragon Ball or something that Kikoho was like a 10x boost to your base power? I swear I remember something like that, but I'm not 100% sure. Either way, that would still mean Tien would have to be roughly at least 1/10th of Semi perfect Cell's power, which realistically would put him above base Vegeta- post ROSAT.

Which I agree, is kinda bs. 😆