It is annoying that you have to pick the best strength feat from one writer and the best speed feat from another, best durability feat from someone else etc to form a comic character's best feats.
Comic writers are dumb as phuck usually. Only there can you find a writer that has Supes bench 6 sextillion tons of weight while weakened for five days straight and then after solar rejuvenation have him struggling with a giant dragon pages later.
Oh that giant dragon wasn't black hole level or anything, it was so weak that it was killed by a large city block sized gas explosion. Lmao.
Originally posted by One Big MobSo out of curiosity Bran...
Don't care about other pages but on the speed angle of the first page, if you make a jump to the low millions you have Final Form Frieza firing a blast that a Piccolo who was above a million couldn't even see even though he could react to other lesser attacks from a less powerful Frieza. Vegeta who could track it then couldn't track Frieza's physical movements very well at all. SS Goku was then wildly above everything 50 percent Frieza could do.Basically everything increases with power and it leads to some interesting conclusions.
That being said, I always had the herald tier with average feats (not counting extreme highs) as somewhere around Frieza level. Casual-ish planet destroying being the tie to 1st form Frieza with the 10x gravity planet. Most high feats countered by "SCALING" and the like. And then you just move up sagas to account for outliers, but it would work for the average levels. This also ignores the street level and meta stuff since you might as well just move down sagas for that and it creates a mess where you can simultaneously argue 1st Form Frieza is a good fight under one light but also Nappa stomps.
I know Vegeta had to power to destroy Earth too, but I'm being pretty fair and intentioned with it.
Once it gets to Buu saga, the scaling should be so retarded that it's kind of pointless for me to even think about. It pretty much becomes the ideal of the comic character only written under one writer as his actual real level to fight these characters. That same guy who fought Thing was actually universal, no amps haha.
Not too far removed from normal debating actually, but it seems so much more focused to me on highs when it's Dragon Ball. Meh.
As an aside for the striking vs weight angle, consider that a weaker version of katchin was durable enough to destroy the Z-Sword without a scratch. The characters are now strong enough to casually destroy upgraded katchin which is much thicker with normal strikes. Unless something completely unbreakable and really heavy is thrown on them, they're probably punching through it. Hell Frieza casually boots away Vegeta's attack that had enough power to destroy Namek. Might not be able to lift everything, but they can sure punch the shit out of it. I mean Thor guaranteed has better lifting feats than Goku, and Goku would make him look like a toddler fighting Jeffrey Dahmer in a physical battle.
Are you of the opinion that DB powalevels didn't start getting into the herald tier until the Namek saga?
If so, is there a particular reason why, or are you just trying to be as "generous" as possible?
Originally posted by DamborgsonBased on the assessment Beerus made about post-Boo saga base Goku being weaker than Freeza(an assessment that neither King Kai, Whis, OR Goku himself disagreed with, mind you), it is actually quite easy to at least come up with a fairly accurate high-end PL for Boo-era Goku, using canon transformation multipliers.
Power levels were only bullshit until Super.I think we can do a fairly good job of keeping everyone in order during Z.
For example, Freeza's PL on Namek was 120m... To prevent us from lowballing, lets assume that base Goku was equal to Freeza at this point.
-The SS1 multiplier = 50x base. Therefore SS1 Goku couldn't have had a PL above 6b during the Boo saga.
-The SS2 multiplier = 2x SS1. Therefore SS2 Goku couldn't have had a PL above 12b during the Boo saga.
-The SS3 multiplier = 4x SS2. Therefore SS3 Goku couldn't have had a PL above 48b during the Boo saga.
tl;dr
Boo-era Goku would cap at a PL of ~48 billion (give or take.) 😉
Originally posted by Galan007
So out of curiosity Bran...Are you of the opinion that DB powalevels didn't start getting into the herald tier until the Namek saga?
If so, is there a particular reason why, or are you just trying to be as "generous" as possible?
Most of my inherent biases are built around the laws of averages. My uses of high end or low end feats for example is usually a reactionary use, or I just discuss the actual feat in question as to what it's most likely intended to be, not what I use personally. As such, as much as I hate collateral damage as an indication or limit, it's really all we have to figure out a scope for DB characters, and you can fairly contrast it to comic characters in that case. I believe every herald level character has the ability to match or exceed planetary destruction based on their own averages (ignoring again street levelers). Thor for example has fought many planet destroyers fairly well even if he only has a handful of feats on that level himself. Superman up until recently didn't really have any explicit planet destruction feats (because why the **** would he) but for his own law of scaling it was well within his capacity, and largely it seems like it's still considered "something" in comics even if it's lower down the totem pole.
Then I can't really ignore the higher feats from them either even if I try to go by averages, so therefore planetary is a start. Obviously these characters have higher feats than that so I can't exactly limit them to around that level precisely, so that gives me just a rough start to use. It encompasses a rough tier for me from meta to herald. Once you can do that you probably pass into that realm of power.
Vegeta passed into that realm in Saiyan saga, but considering some of the more absurd feats these "heralds" have you need to widen the horizon a bit to encompass most of the feats from DB characters. And with Namek being such a wide berth of power, it should fill out that range fairly well. As we know too with averages, you don't need to account for that with DB at all, so that's strictly a comic thing due to all the cooks in the kitchen.
Then you consider the next step up being Cell able to sweep away the solar system, and you can't exactly scale Frieza past that, so that's a limit for him on the forums. If a comic character has such a feat - and they do - it creates a limitation for them to definitively scale under Frieza under our current paradigm. So you just keep shifting up until you can match it in a debate under my ideals. Not a hardcap by any means but it avoids talking to a wall.
That being said and going back to inherent bias, no matter how many solar systems or "universes" Thor destroys, I still don't see him beating out Namek Frieza even without the speed. I don't know if that's just averages or what but there's just some things I can't accept. I would have no issue accepting he has better feats that Frieza currently couldn't match, but in my personal opinion Frieza would knock him around like a child. Hulk too. This is also a reason why you ever rarely saw me arguing who would win a fight but rather instead talked about issues involving feats or events. Am I going to really change my mind on who wins a fight because a guy had a feat that exceeded 70 percent of his previously known feats? Unlikely. A lot of these feats are meaningless to me unless it's just a slew of feats from a new character or someone gets an amp and actually uses it. Thor could punch out 3 Celestials (God I hope not) and he's still going to have a rough go at Thing next issue. It does solve to fit them into some sort of tier I create in my own mind though. Basically too much shit has happened to make drastic shifts in character opinions for me.
So it's a combination of fairness for all involved I believe. You have the mininum level of Z for usual debates encroaching on comic tier feats and then them multiplying hundreds of times from there to reach some of the higher feats.
I think I'm being pretty generous though in willing to ignore the obvious low feats that comes with fighting with or against Spider-Man tiers, but that's about it.
It just works Galan.
Originally posted by One Big MobThat's fair. 👆
Most of my inherent biases are built around the laws of averages. My uses of high end or low end feats for example is usually a reactionary use, or I just discuss the actual feat in question as to what it's most likely intended to be, not what I use personally. As such, as much as I hate collateral damage as an indication or limit, it's really all we have to figure out a scope for DB characters, and you can fairly contrast it to comic characters in that case. I believe every herald level character has the ability to match or exceed planetary destruction based on their own averages[b] (ignoring again street levelers). Thor for example has fought many planet destroyers fairly well even if he only has a handful of feats on that level himself. Superman up until recently didn't really have any explicit planet destruction feats (because why the **** would he) but for his own law of scaling it was well within his capacity, and largely it seems like it's still considered "something" in comics even if it's lower down the totem pole.Then I can't really ignore the higher feats from them either even if I try to go by averages, so therefore planetary is a start. Obviously these characters have higher feats than that so I can't exactly limit them to around that level precisely, so that gives me just a rough start to use. It encompasses a rough tier for me from meta to herald. Once you can do that you probably pass into that realm of power.
Vegeta passed into that realm in Saiyan saga, but considering some of the more absurd feats these "heralds" have you need to widen the horizon a bit to encompass most of the feats from DB characters. And with Namek being such a wide berth of power, it should fill out that range fairly well. As we know too with averages, you don't need to account for that with DB at all, so that's strictly a comic thing due to all the cooks in the kitchen.
Then you consider the next step up being Cell able to sweep away the solar system, and you can't exactly scale Frieza past that, so that's a limit for him on the forums. If a comic character has such a feat - and they do - it creates a limitation for them to definitively scale under Frieza under our current paradigm. So you just keep shifting up until you can match it in a debate under my ideals. Not a hardcap by any means but it avoids talking to a wall.
That being said and going back to inherent bias, no matter how many solar systems or "universes" Thor destroys, I still don't see him beating out Namek Frieza even without the speed. I don't know if that's just averages or what but there's just some things I can't accept. I would have no issue accepting he has better feats that Frieza currently couldn't match, but in my personal opinion Frieza would knock him around like a child. Hulk too. This is also a reason why you ever rarely saw me arguing who would win a fight but rather instead talked about issues involving feats or events. Am I going to really change my mind on who wins a fight because a guy had a feat that exceeded 70 percent of his previously known feats? Unlikely. A lot of these feats are meaningless to me unless it's just a slew of feats from a new character or someone gets an amp and actually uses it. Thor could punch out 3 Celestials (God I hope not) and he's still going to have a rough go at Thing next issue. It does solve to fit them into some sort of tier I create in my own mind though. Basically too much shit has happened to make drastic shifts in character opinions for me.
So it's a combination of fairness for all involved I believe. You have the mininum level of Z for usual debates encroaching on comic tier feats and then them multiplying hundreds of times from there to reach some of the higher feats.
I think I'm being pretty generous though in willing to ignore the obvious low feats that comes with fighting with or against Spider-Man tiers, but that's about it.
It just works Galan. [/B]
You also brought up a great point(I think Phil may have mentioned it too): one huge benefit DB has over comics(in regards to consolidating power levels) is that it has been written by ONE person for the last 30+ years... Good or bad, it is ALL part of Toriyama's singular vision.
So there aren't "Byrne era" or "Morrison era" or "pre-Crisis or "post-Flashpoint" versions of Goku's feats to choose from, for example. The Goku we're currently seeing in DBS today, is still being written/overseen by the SAME slimy Asian who originally created him back in '84... Goku is Goku, if you will.
All asians are slimey; look to Darksaint for example. But the Ni... Japs are just raging perverts but he still drew some really cool fight scenes. If he wants to draw the WT announcer as a raging rapist then who am I to judge him when he's given me such gifts?
It's like Kevin Spaceyism (but Toriyama likes girls so that's cool). When you're that great at your craft, I can set your personal life aside from your skills. Fine actor as any, but complete scum as a person. We still need him back!
Originally posted by One Big Mob
All asians are slimey; look to Darksaint for example. But the Ni... Japs are just raging perverts but he still drew some really cool fight scenes. If he wants to draw the WT announcer as a raging rapist then who am I to judge him when he's given me such gifts?It's like Kevin Spaceyism (but Toriyama likes girls so that's cool). When you're that great at your craft, I can set your personal life aside from your skills. Fine actor as any, but complete scum as a person. We still need him back!
Classic. 👆
Say what you will about Kevin, but the man knew what he wanted and wasn't afraid to alpha when the situation needed to be alpha'd:
"A drunken Spacey confronted him in 2003 at a Los Angeles pub, groped his genitals and chased him into a bathroom. "He grabbed my whole package, he grabbed me hard; no one had ever done that to me," said Montana, who was then in his 30s."
We could all learn a lot from him, imo.
But yeah, Toriyama's created some great tales over the years. 👆
Originally posted by Parmaniac1- broly ravages.
Broly (OG 1st movie) vs. Darkseid?1. Pure slugfest
2. All powers
Originally posted by One Big Mobso a followup question because i still want to know what people think about philo's original question and scaling (i hope he hasn't abandoned this thread already 🙁)
Most of my inherent biases are built around the laws of averages. My uses of high end or low end feats for example is usually a reactionary use, or I just discuss the actual feat in question as to what it's most likely intended to be, not what I use personally. As such, as much as I hate collateral damage as an indication or limit, it's really all we have to figure out a scope for DB characters, and you can fairly contrast it to comic characters in that case. I believe every herald level character has the ability to match or exceed planetary destruction based on their own averages[b] (ignoring again street levelers). Thor for example has fought many planet destroyers fairly well even if he only has a handful of feats on that level himself. Superman up until recently didn't really have any explicit planet destruction feats (because why the **** would he) but for his own law of scaling it was well within his capacity, and largely it seems like it's still considered "something" in comics even if it's lower down the totem pole.Then I can't really ignore the higher feats from them either even if I try to go by averages, so therefore planetary is a start. Obviously these characters have higher feats than that so I can't exactly limit them to around that level precisely, so that gives me just a rough start to use. It encompasses a rough tier for me from meta to herald. Once you can do that you probably pass into that realm of power.
Vegeta passed into that realm in Saiyan saga, but considering some of the more absurd feats these "heralds" have you need to widen the horizon a bit to encompass most of the feats from DB characters. And with Namek being such a wide berth of power, it should fill out that range fairly well. As we know too with averages, you don't need to account for that with DB at all, so that's strictly a comic thing due to all the cooks in the kitchen.
Then you consider the next step up being Cell able to sweep away the solar system, and you can't exactly scale Frieza past that, so that's a limit for him on the forums. If a comic character has such a feat - and they do - it creates a limitation for them to definitively scale under Frieza under our current paradigm. So you just keep shifting up until you can match it in a debate under my ideals. Not a hardcap by any means but it avoids talking to a wall.
That being said and going back to inherent bias, no matter how many solar systems or "universes" Thor destroys, I still don't see him beating out Namek Frieza even without the speed. I don't know if that's just averages or what but there's just some things I can't accept. I would have no issue accepting he has better feats that Frieza currently couldn't match, but in my personal opinion Frieza would knock him around like a child. Hulk too. This is also a reason why you ever rarely saw me arguing who would win a fight but rather instead talked about issues involving feats or events. Am I going to really change my mind on who wins a fight because a guy had a feat that exceeded 70 percent of his previously known feats? Unlikely. A lot of these feats are meaningless to me unless it's just a slew of feats from a new character or someone gets an amp and actually uses it. Thor could punch out 3 Celestials (God I hope not) and he's still going to have a rough go at Thing next issue. It does solve to fit them into some sort of tier I create in my own mind though. Basically too much shit has happened to make drastic shifts in character opinions for me.
So it's a combination of fairness for all involved I believe. You have the mininum level of Z for usual debates encroaching on comic tier feats and then them multiplying hundreds of times from there to reach some of the higher feats.
I think I'm being pretty generous though in willing to ignore the obvious low feats that comes with fighting with or against Spider-Man tiers, but that's about it.
It just works Galan. [/B]
where do you think saiyan arc piccolo would rank among the tiers? like, what comic character would be his closest rival iyo?