Originally posted by carver9truly curious carver- do you really think saiyan arc goku has the versatility to own a legit high herald like surfer?
Thor vs Sentry
Thor vs Hulk
Thor vs Silver Surfer
Superman vs Doomsday
Superman vs Mongul
Superman vs Darkseid
Silver Surfer vs Nova Prime
Silver Surfer vs Morg
Silver Surfer vs Bills
Thanos vs Annihilus
Thanos vs Marvell
Thanos vs The AvengersSaiyan Saga Goku would be bored AF looking at these fights.
Nope. I dont think Saiyan Saga Goku could beat anyone in the High Herald tier (even though Philo is presenting a solid case thats making me think otherwise). I do think this version of Goku would annihilate any Herald.
Glad I mentioned this. Does anyone have that scan where Babidi readings showed Base Goku being able to exert his power and shed 6 planets in a single attack and Super Saiyan Goku being able to destroy 12 planets? I use to post it in the anime forum years ago but i can't find it.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXIn terms of sheer power alone he'd be below heralds under my idea of scaling. But that creates an issue with comic characters as well. For example Iron Man is very rarely just fodder against heralds and Spider-Man is very rarely... never fodder against Iron Man. But just casually blowing up the moon like that is an amplitude above what Iron Man has ever shown; above what most characters have shown. More than "herald" level - which is still a case-by-case basis - it doesn't tell the full picture. Although I'd rank his personal power below the herald tier, it's every attack he does that carries this type of focused power, albeit not collateral damage. Speed, strikes, blasts, and then charged up blasts too.
1- broly ravages.
2- darkseid wins. broly would let the ob hit him, and would then be dumped on the other side of the universeso a followup question because i still want to know what people think about philo's original question and scaling (i hope he hasn't abandoned this thread already 🙁)
where do you think saiyan arc piccolo would rank among the tiers? like, what comic character would be his closest rival iyo?
Going back to how well Iron Man does against everyone except Hulk, being completely above Iron Man in every offensive aspect is going to carry a lot of weight going forward. If you argue every character is just jobbing against him then you're erasing his whole history.
Essentially if you contrast it to what characters can't do that, then your intuition is going to make him capable of beating a lot of characters who he may scale under. The problem with that is once you get to that point you have to sweep the board of Iron Man and then start arguing against the character you're scaling up to; in essence just basically stating everything Iron Man has done is PIS.
Again case-by-case, but still should be no lesser than Iron Man to me. It's probably a lot smoother of a transition if you just skip to herald level otherwise you get a lot of unwanted reverberations opening up a lot of cans of carverworms.
It also highlights the quandary of comics where blowing up a moon can be seen as an extreme feat but they can also tackle suns too but also they can fail to lift a building. Anyone that can casually blow up moons is going to be seen as no less than a team threat in comics but it's so inconsistent that it's nowhere near impressive against their other feats... spread very far out.
Basically once Thor full on tanks an attack from Iron Man under multiple writers with no amps is the day I think Saiyan saga Piccolo fails to rough him up. But I digress.
Originally posted by carver9It wasn't stated quite that explicitly, but it's a logical conclusion you can reach. During the Boo saga, Babidi measured energy signatures in "kili" units.
Does anyone have that scan where Babidi readings showed Base Goku being able to exert his power and shed 6 planets in a single attack and Super Saiyan Goku being able to destroy 12 planets? I use to post it in the anime forum years ago but i can't find it.
According to Dabura, someone with a kili rating of 200-300 can destroy "a planet or two"... But lets just lowball and say that it takes a kili rating of 250 to destroy one planet.
Goku had a kili rating of 3,000 just after he initially went SS1(ie. before he had powered up at all within that form.) This means Goku had the power to destroy no less than 12 planets as a suppressed SS1.
Originally posted by One Big Mobyeah. i'm trying to see what kind of power people think it takes for the db characters to step into the herald tier. i think that's what philo is wondering also.
Again case-by-case, but still should be no lesser than Iron Man to me. It's probably a lot smoother of a transition if you just skip to herald level otherwise you get a lot of unwanted reverberations opening up a lot of cans of carverworms.
so if you have saiyan arc piccolo at iron man level, what level would you put nappa at considering he owned piccolo easily?
then what level would you put base saiyan arc goku at considering he owned nappa easily?
then what level would you put saiyan arc vegeta atconsidering it took goku using kaio ken multiples to match and beat him?
do you think any of the above step into the domain of the herald tier, or do you think they ONLY get there by the namek arc?
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
yeah. i'm trying to see what kind of power people think it takes for the db characters to step into the herald tier. i think that's what philo is wondering also.so if you have saiyan arc piccolo at iron man level, what level would you put nappa at considering he owned piccolo easily?
then what level would you put base saiyan arc goku at considering he owned nappa easily?
then what level would you put saiyan arc vegeta atconsidering it took goku using kaio ken multiples to match and beat him?
do you think any of the above step into the domain of the herald tier, or do you think they ONLY get there by the namek arc?
Like I said I'm using planet destroying as an anchor point for stepping into that tier per my definition. I think I've adequately explained my process already. We're playing fast and loose here with the rules not adhering to strict guidelines. If I think Piccolo can knock around Thor with sheer power, then I'm not too concerned with the nuance of Goku's standing when he irrumatios Hulk.
If you need a strict restriction on the tier then 18000 is apparently the baseline, so:
Goku is 44% of the prerequisite required to be considered offensively a herald. If Goku was 17999 then he can't be considered on that tier!
I bet that really helps doesn't it?
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Only there can you find a writer that has Supes bench 6 sextillion tons of weight while weakened for five days straight and then after solar rejuvenation have him struggling with a giant dragon pages later.Oh that giant dragon wasn't black hole level or anything, it was so weak that it was killed by a large city block sized gas explosion. Lmao.
Yes.
Same with Glads busting a planet, then getting tentacle-raped.
Or Thanos and Drax destroying a planet during their fight, then all other battles involving Thanos doing nowhere near as much "collateral damage".
I've been busy with some other stuff, but I'll try to post some scans and stuff today.
There's very few herald level characters who've shown the ability to destroy the moon/planet -- nevermind destroy the moon casually. I'm eyeballing it -- but looking at the tiers -- there's about 200-300 heralds there [low-to high]. Between them they have hundreds of thousands of appearances. Between those appearances, there's about a dozen or so feats of planet/moon-busting, done by only like 5% of them. And then you account for the variance in writers. And those are high feats for any of them.
So, imagine I dunno, God Cable or Magneto. Both of them are mid-heralds. Imagine either one of them busting the moon [with effort]. That would be a ridiculous feat for them, all things considered. That's Master Roshi, in a nutshell. Now, imagine either of them busting the moon with a casual blast. That's Piccolo, in a nutshell. Now imagine Nappa Raditz no-selling a blast above that:
What would you think of a character doing that? High-herald? Very Upper mid-herald? Ok. Now, think that a team of >= multiple Raditz-level beings [Piccolo, Krillin and the rest] or above was nothing to Nappa who was taking it easy and use them as ass-wipes. Remember the small creatures [name skips me for now], that were all Raditz level and were getting plowed [post-training Piccolo casually one-shotted one]? Yeah, that, too.
So Raditz -- high herald/at the edge of HH/MH.
Nappa was shitstomping an entire team of HH/MH [Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Tien all post-training].
Who does Nappa reminde you of, in comic books. Stomping teams of heralds, being far above them?
After you answer this question, imagine that Goku [w/ simple Kaioken] one-shotted Nappa.
And we've not even gotten to Vegeta.
And all of these would get one-shotted by Ginyu...but...I'm getting way ahead.
So...Nappa.
I know what the reluctance is here -- but we can't say that Raditz is a good fight for, I dunno, Black Adam. Then say Nappa is. Then say Vegeta is.
Then say Ginyu is.
Then say First Form Freeza is.
So, if this is difficult, imagine that after each arc, we have to rank the characters, ignoring anything that comes above.
Dragon Ball, hypothetically, stopped at the Saiyan Saga.
The crazy part is, base Vegeta, Saiyan saga, is a confirmed planet destroyer and Frieza saga Goku could stand in one spot and tank all of his attacks. Frieza was an effortlessly planet destroyer in his first form and his attacks, even going all out wouldnt tickle Super Saiyan Goku. Casual planet busters become less than an ant by the time Z ends. Their attacks are meaningless.
Originally posted by Galan007
It wasn't stated quite that explicitly, but it's a logical conclusion you can reach. During the Boo saga, Babidi measured energy signatures in "kili" units.According to Dabura, someone with a kili rating of 200-300 can destroy "a planet or two"... But lets just lowball and say that it takes a kili rating of 250 to destroy one planet.
Goku had a kili rating of 3,000 just after he initially went SS1(ie. before he had powered up at all within that form.) This means Goku had the power to destroy no less than 12 planets as a suppressed SS1.
Thanks Galan.
Lol... we've just discussed a noob SSJ 1 being able to destroy 12 planets in a single attack without even knowing how to use his powers fully and you pit Superman against someone that makes this version of Goku look like a dirt pebble? Someone that could laugh off SS1 Goku power output and walk through it? Funny guy you. Add Thanos and World Breaker Hulk on Superman team and they all die.
Originally posted by carver9
Lol... we've just discussed a noob SSJ 1 being able to destroy 12 planets in a single attack without even knowing how to use his powers fully and you pit Superman against someone that makes this version of Goku look like a dirt pebble? Someone that could laugh off SS1 Goku power output and walk through it? Funny guy you. Add Thanos and World Breaker Hulk on Superman team and they all die.