Unfortunately this line of thought is nothing new.
Originally posted by cdtm
They say most martial art disciplines are bunk. 😉
Modern combat sports have definitely exposed a lot of bullshit in the martial arts world. It's already happened in the west/Japan, and Xu Xiaodong is currently doing a lot of work in China in this regard.
Interestingly, what led to the bullshit was essentially martial arts echo chambers. Everyone retreated to their insulated spaces, convinced they had the best style. Whenever they did "test" their ideas, it was only against people from the same style as their own. Questioning your instructor was sacrilege. It became identity politics but applied to fighting, with people scoffing at the idea of cross training. Instructors would literally forbid using techniques they didn't show you themselves.
Then everyone got a wake up call as vale tudo/NHB grew, eventually becoming MMA. Turns out fighting is really complicated, and multiple styles got many things right and many things wrong. You only get the "best" system by adopting a holistic view of combat, and throwing off the shackles of rigid martial ideology.
It's almost like appreciating nuance helps in most areas of life, including fighting. 😱
That reminds me of the JRE episode where he had the aikido guy on who was trying to talk it up, and Joe was just like "all that tells me is it only works on someone who doesn't know what the f**k they are doing" lmaooo.
The guy claimed that there was an "exhibition" at some point a long time ago, very vague about it, where he said an aikido master was beating masters of other kinds of martial arts, but young Jamie couldn't find anything on it.
They ended up just finding a random video of an aikido guy against an old dude that used to be a wrestler and the wrestler just tossed him around like a ragdoll rofl.
Originally posted by StyleTimeone of the things though st, is some now banned techniques from early mma negated whole swathes of techniques. Of these, football kicks to grounded opponents seen best in early Pride, a take down defence and football kicks to a grounded opponent was on the verge of destroying many ground fighters. It was also incredibly dangerous to the grounded fighter, sometimes the direct approach is the most effective. Situations are also important. I can think of nowhere I'd rather be less than wearing winter clothing fighting s judo expert on a concrete sidewalk whereas, with no gi, I fancy my muay thai plum to negate his judo in the clinch. but I digress.
👆Modern combat sports have definitely exposed a lot of bullshit in the martial arts world. It's already happened in the west/Japan, and Xu Xiaodong is currently doing a lot of work in China in this regard.
Interestingly, what led to the bullshit was essentially martial arts echo chambers. Everyone retreated to their insulated spaces, convinced they had the best style. Whenever they did "test" their ideas, it was only against people from the same style as their own. Questioning your instructor was sacrilege. It became identity politics but applied to fighting, with people scoffing at the idea of cross training. Instructors would literally forbid using techniques they didn't show you themselves.
Then everyone got a wake up call as vale tudo/NHB grew, eventually becoming MMA. Turns out fighting is really complicated, and multiple styles got many things right and many things wrong. You only get the "best" system by adopting a holistic view of combat, and throwing off the shackles of rigid martial ideology.
It's almost like appreciating nuance helps in most areas of life, including fighting. 😱
Originally posted by victreebelvictrI think to me the funniest part about her talk is this is something conservatives already try to do with youth.
She is technically right though.I don't see why this thread was made to trash Republicans if it wasn't wrong. 😂
And have been doing with youth for centuries in this country.
I know I once overheard a conversation at a church where a pastor literally told a kid going to college. Just say what the professor wants to hear but understand they're wrong and ignore them afterwards.
I can tell you that's not an uncommon talk. It's also why smaller religious private colleges started popping up like weeds as more kids went to college.
Originally posted by StyleTime
👆Modern combat sports have definitely exposed a lot of bullshit in the martial arts world. It's already happened in the west/Japan, and Xu Xiaodong is currently doing a lot of work in China in this regard.
Interestingly, what led to the bullshit was essentially martial arts echo chambers. Everyone retreated to their insulated spaces, convinced they had the best style. Whenever they did "test" their ideas, it was only against people from the same style as their own. Questioning your instructor was sacrilege. It became identity politics but applied to fighting, with people scoffing at the idea of cross training. Instructors would literally forbid using techniques they didn't show you themselves.
Then everyone got a wake up call as vale tudo/NHB grew, eventually becoming MMA. Turns out fighting is really complicated, and multiple styles got many things right and many things wrong. You only get the "best" system by adopting a holistic view of combat, and throwing off the shackles of rigid martial ideology.
It's almost like appreciating nuance helps in most areas of life, including fighting. 😱
I won't lie, I had an "Oh shit" moment growing up during the rise of MMA in America, and realizing shotokan karate was bs, having learned the art myself.
But that was a kids thinking. I absolutely love how they show what really works, and what doesn't.
In a ring. That's the rub, MMA can only really show what's effective in a sport, with rules. A brawl is a whole different animal (Not that styles are necessarily any more effective in a brawl either)
One criticism of MMA, is they seem to hand pick competition to an extent. The great Rickson Gracie turned away a LOT of challenges, while carrying a reputation as apex predator of his sport.
As opppsed to someone like Sakuraba, who takes on all challengers under any rules, win or lose.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Are those styles really bunk or are they just woefully inferior to modern, mixed arts? Or to put the question differently, would they be sufficient against an untrained assailant?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOh2J1b3lQ
I don't believe in mocking them necessarily, but stuff like this is borderline immoral. People came to them to learn fighting principles, and it's potentially endangering their lives to teach them straight up bullshit. Mid-fight is the worst time to learn none of your techniques actually work.
Originally posted by Trocity
That reminds me of the JRE episode where he had the aikido guy on who was trying to talk it up, and Joe was just like "all that tells me is it only works on someone who doesn't know what the f**k they are doing" lmaooo.The guy claimed that there was an "exhibition" at some point a long time ago, very vague about it, where he said an aikido master was beating masters of other kinds of martial arts, but young Jamie couldn't find anything on it.
They ended up just finding a random video of an aikido guy against an old dude that used to be a wrestler and the wrestler just tossed him around like a ragdoll rofl.
Doesn't mean that chain punching is effective per se. Athleticism is a huge advantage with untrained people, particularly if they are aggressive.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
one of the things though st, is some now banned techniques from early mma negated whole swathes of techniques. Of these, football kicks to grounded opponents seen best in early Pride, a take down defence and football kicks to a grounded opponent was on the verge of destroying many ground fighters. It was also incredibly dangerous to the grounded fighter, sometimes the direct approach is the most effective. Situations are also important. I can think of nowhere I'd rather be less than wearing winter clothing fighting s judo expert on a concrete sidewalk whereas, with no gi, I fancy my muay thai plum to negate his judo in the clinch. but I digress.
On the second part, even in no-gi, I'd still favor judo in the clinch over Muay Thai 8 times out of 10 tbh. Same for nearly any wrestling style. We've seen those style vs style matchups(some are on youtube), and pure judo has a more comprehensive clinch grappling game than pure Muay Thai. Of course, this is only if they are "pure" stylists.
Originally posted by StyleTime
We certainly have the benefit of modern evolution, true, and people are just more skilled nowadays. Top MMA fighters from the 90's would get destroyed by even unranked fighters today, much less a ninja like Stylebender. I'd still say go for something that works on trained people, rather than limiting yourself though. But, there is absolutely BS in martial arts. The biggest offender is the chi-based stuff. Lots of folks made money convincing their followers they could fire invisible energy blasts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOh2J1b3lQ
I don't believe in mocking them necessarily, but stuff like this is borderline immoral. People came to them to learn fighting principles, and it's potentially endangering their lives to teach them straight up bullshit. Mid-fight is the worst time to learn none of your techniques actually work.
A lot of those chi or no-touch "masters" aren't trying to sell junk; they actually believe it themselves.
This guy covers the topic pretty well I think:
Originally posted by cdtm
I won't lie, I had an "Oh shit" moment growing up during the rise of MMA in America, and realizing shotokan karate was bs, having learned the art myself.But that was a kids thinking. I absolutely love how they show what really works, and what doesn't.
In a ring. That's the rub, MMA can only really show what's effective in a sport, with rules. A brawl is a whole different animal (Not that styles are necessarily any more effective in a brawl either)
One criticism of MMA, is they seem to hand pick competition to an extent. The great Rickson Gracie turned away a LOT of challenges, while carrying a reputation as apex predator of his sport.
As opppsed to someone like Sakuraba, who takes on all challengers under any rules, win or lose.
The "I train fo' dah streetz!" argument is mostly false though. Back in the NHB/Vale Tudo days, MMA didn't have those rules. Vale Tudo, The Gracie Challenges, dojo storms, etc-- it was anything goes, and nothing really changed. The folks who now claim the rules limit them, also got destroyed back then. We don't see white crane kung fu, aikido, or tai chi because they don't generally have effective frameworks for combat training. Maybe a useful concept exists here and there, but it's generally covered by another art.
And shaolin folks will reference Yi Long, but he was a ****ing kickboxer/san da guy who would dress up as a monk for the spectacle. The Shaolin Temple officially said he isn't affiliated with them.
Originally posted by cdtm
One criticism of MMA, is they seem to hand pick competition to an extent. The great Rickson Gracie turned away a LOT of challenges, while carrying a reputation as apex predator of his sport.As opppsed to someone like Sakuraba, who takes on all challengers under any rules, win or lose.
The Gracies did have some suspected tomfoolery with their opponents in early UFC, but that was a different time. Sakuraba was something else in his prime too, so it's no surprise he beat so many Gracies. I too suspect they kept Rickson from fighting him, as Rickson was supposed to be the best among them. Were Rickson to lose, which was a huge possibility, it could have tarnished the Gracie mystique. They are old men now, but Rickson and Sakuraba did an interview together some years ago. Rickson does say that not fighting Sakuraba is his biggest regret.
Much respect to both guys though. Pioneers.
Originally posted by NemeBro
A lot of those chi or no-touch "masters" aren't trying to sell junk; they actually believe it themselves.This guy covers the topic pretty well I think:
Granted, I'm not just talking about the chi/ki people here. The "I'm just too deadly to compete" and "women's self defense" crowd also fall into this category. Profiting off people's fear with promises of quick and easy techniques so they don't have to actually get good at fighting.
As with many others, I don't enjoy seeing gullible people get beat up. I suppose it's a necessary evil though, so less people fall prey to it.
Originally posted by StyleTimeyeah, I know one allows kicks on downed opponents it still bans downward elbows to the top of the head, back of the neck, spine doesn't it? Thing about Judo vs muay thai clothed and unclothed is all elbows and knees lose effectiveness in heavy coats. It's why as a doorman you get given a crombie, for judo it just adds leverage and points of contact. The plum is not just to set up sweeps and grappling, its mainly to control the body to allow knees and avoid takedown, if you have a good plum, for the street it can frame headbutt etc. As Letheringsett practitioners show. All these things make it very difficult for the no gi arsenal of a Judoka. Yeah, if the Nak Muay has some Judi, or wrestling it would be harder still. In clothes Judoka, in shorts Nak muay for me on the street. Because the Judoka will eat to much engaging and struggle to stay engaged. If it goes to ground sure, he'll gain dominance of a pure Nak Muay. In winter clothes 10/10 Judoka, in shots Nak Muay more than a majority.
We certainly have the benefit of modern evolution, true, and people are just more skilled nowadays. Top MMA fighters from the 90's would get destroyed by even unranked fighters today, much less a ninja like Stylebender. I'd still say go for something that works on trained people, rather than limiting yourself though. But, there is absolutely BS in martial arts. The biggest offender is the chi-based stuff. Lots of folks made money convincing their followers they could fire invisible energy blasts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOh2J1b3lQ
I don't believe in mocking them necessarily, but stuff like this is borderline immoral. People came to them to learn fighting principles, and it's potentially endangering their lives to teach them straight up bullshit. Mid-fight is the worst time to learn none of your techniques actually work.
I remember a conversation with Jocko, and the same thing happened when discussing wing chun chain punching. If you're athletic and aggressive, you probably could just bum rush an average schmoe. Blasting someone 9 times in the face before they respond won't feel great.
Doesn't mean that chain punching is effective per se. Athleticism is a huge advantage with untrained people, particularly if they are aggressive.
You're watching the wrong orgs broski. Watch Taiyo Nakahara vs Kazuma Kuramoto. Or Kai Asakura vs Hiromasa Ougikubo. Soccer kicks/stomps/etc are still fair game in places like OneFC, Rizin, etc.
On the second part, even in no-gi, I'd still favor judo in the clinch over Muay Thai 8 times out of 10 tbh. Same for nearly any wrestling style. We've seen those style vs style matchups(some are on youtube), and pure judo has a more comprehensive clinch grappling game than pure Muay Thai. Of course, this is only if they are "pure" stylists.
Originally posted by StyleTimeone or two styles have elements still to dangerous for most rings, street savate for instance replaces the hardened soles and heels of savate, which gave mma the oblique kicks jones uses, yes we have them in muay thai and other styles, they are deployed differently and on the street with steel heels and steel toecap savate, a sport for training kicking in weighted shoes, becomes bone breaking and lethal. It's like wearing knuckle dusters on your feet. I actually had a pair of street savate shoes, they are the ultimate equaliser.
It has a lot of BS, but it has some effective principles too. Machida did take the UFC light heavyweight title, and was shotokan based. Front stance, single straight punches rather than combinations, in-and-out blitzes--all staples of classic shotokan and that was how he fought. He had a strange skillset in general though, being a legitimate sumo champion and a bjj black belt.The "I train fo' dah streetz!" argument is mostly false though. Back in the NHB/Vale Tudo days, MMA didn't have those rules. Vale Tudo, The Gracie Challenges, dojo storms, etc-- it was anything goes, and nothing really changed. The folks who now claim the rules limit them, also got destroyed back then. We don't see white crane kung fu, aikido, or tai chi because they don't generally have effective frameworks for combat training. Maybe a useful concept exists here and there, but it's generally covered by another art.
And shaolin folks will reference Yi Long, but he was a ****ing kickboxer/san da guy who would dress up as a monk for the spectacle. The Shaolin Temple officially said he isn't affiliated with them.
MMA is actually the sport where fighters get thrown to the sharks. No one is really protected. That's boxing. I respect boxing a lot, but Mayweather has been fighting non-boxers for the last 6 years, with Logan Paul being next, and still claims he's fighter of the decade. 😕
The Gracies did have some suspected tomfoolery with their opponents in early UFC, but that was a different time. Sakuraba was something else in his prime too, so it's no surprise he beat so many Gracies. I too suspect they kept Rickson from fighting him, as Rickson was supposed to be the best among them. Were Rickson to lose, which was a huge possibility, it could have tarnished the Gracie mystique. They are old men now, but Rickson and Sakuraba did an interview together some years ago. Rickson does say that not fighting Sakuraba is his biggest regret.
Much respect to both guys though. Pioneers.