Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Yes on Ewing. I like that he has a plan.... A map of sorts. He's not the best writer out there, but his hierarchy is fairly coherent or coherent enough i should say. Plus I like that he still keeps a veil on the end game which gives his cosmic heirarchy a fog of mystery.
Starlin too
Regulator Thanos is literally the only one beside TOAA that could contend with DC's high tier abstracts
Originally posted by Galan007
There are a select few characters in mainstream DC who could possibly overcome the fundamental concept/story/essence of Superman made manifest in the form of Thought-Robot... and Perpetua isn't one of them, imo.This is sort of backed by the fact that Dr. Manhattan(who was heavily indicated to be more powerful than Mxy, and a peer of Perpetua) believed that it was fully possible for Superman to actually kill him -- the multiverse's greatest antibody, and all that. /shrug
Nice post.
Yeah, personally I would rank CR Thanos and TOAA above anyone in DC sans The Presence (which is truly omnipotent and would literally erase all of Marvel ab aeterno in a blink) and maybe The Hands. TOAA completely transcends every cosmos (8 Multiversal/Multiverse-sized cosmoses) and is more powerful than all the other power in existence combined. Every infinity gauntlet in every universe, every God, every Beyonder, every Abstract (LT/Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Death), etc. I don”t see Perpetua/DK/God WW matching that level of power.
@Phil @CD
I’ll get to your points later. Suffice it to say, I don”t think you can merge Morrison and Snyder”s cosmologies in a way that makes Mandrakk on par with Perpetua.
Presence/Overvoid/Source>>>TOAA and Regulator Thanos, by a large amount
Lucifer alone can solo marvel including TOAA, based on feats
current marvel has like one multiverse, dc has infinite multiverses
marvel has no higher level of existence to speak of other than superflow and neutral zone (both undefined)
dc has several level of infinities each transcend the last
it's stupid to even compare two different level of cosmologies, dunno why I bring it up
It's like comparing Umineko cosmology to dragonball
you guys need to stop, they are not equal on any footing
Suffice it to say, I don”t think you can merge Morrison and Snyder”s cosmologies in a way that makes Mandrakk on par with Perpetua.Mandrakk has nothing to do with Snyder's cosmology, other than "hey, he appeared in that crisis event so he helped her, too". You're trying to fit David Lynch and Michael Bay in a movie.
Originally posted by MrMind
Presence/Overvoid/Source>>>TOAA and Regulator Thanos, by a large amountLucifer alone can solo marvel including TOAA, based on feats
current marvel has like one multiverse, dc has infinite multiverses
marvel has no higher level of existence to speak of other than superflow and neutral zone (both undefined)
dc has several level of infinities each transcend the last
it's stupid to even compare two different level of cosmologies, dunno why I bring it up
It's like comparing Umineko cosmology to dragonball
you guys need to stop, they are not equal on any footing
Lol again I’d disagree strongly and YOU brought it up so you don’t really get to tell us to stop. Even though I said nothing beyond the fact that I disagree and dropped it. 👆
Originally posted by Philosophía
👆Mandrakk is a direct agent of the Overvoid and specifically its first son [i.e. Lucifer]. He's the entropic hyper-story. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the most powerful of all its agents in the entire Omniverse.
Perpetua/Dr. Manhattan are agents of story [crisis energy/connectivity energy]. Mandrakk, by definition, is the devourer of both. And the only story that can match him is the one that can become as powerful as the threat -- that of Superman, in its pure thought essence, through the Thought Robot. Mandrakk created the only thing powerful enough to defeat himself.
You’re basically saying
Lucifer and Mandrakk are similar, if not the same
While CAS and Michael are also similar
Originally posted by xJLxKingMorrison intended the Monitors to represent angels. Dax Novu [Lucifer] is the fallen angel who became Mandrakk [the Devil]. It's not really subtle, but still. The comparisons between Thought Robot and Michael aren't there, though.
You’re basically saying
Lucifer and Mandrakk are similar, if not the same
While CAS and Michael are also similar
Originally posted by xJLxKingI think Phil is saying that Dax Novu's "origin story" is very similar to Lucifer's, in the sense that he was the first angel/probe/son created by Monitor Mind -- he was initially the wisest, most beautiful, etc. He was even called "The Radiant One", which draws another parallel with the name Lucifer, which means "Light Bringer."
You’re basically saying
Lucifer and Mandrakk are similar, if not the same
While CAS and Michael are also similar
But when Dax Novu made contact with the essence of story within mainstream DC, he was corrupted into Mandrakk: the antithesis of the stories he had encountered. At this point he essentially became the first fallen angel(not unlike Lucifer's transition into the devil/Satan.)
Additionally, Mandrakk would go on to corrupt more Monitors/angels to his cause -- similarly to how a multitude of angels were corrupted after Lucifer's fall/rebellion.
Originally posted by Philosophía
👆Mandrakk is a direct agent of the Overvoid and specifically its first son [i.e. Lucifer]. He's the entropic hyper-story. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the most powerful of all its agents in the entire Omniverse.
Perpetua/Dr. Manhattan are agents of story [crisis energy/connectivity energy]. Mandrakk, by definition, is the devourer of both. And the only story that can match him is the one that can become as powerful as the threat -- that of Superman, in its pure thought essence, through the Thought Robot. Mandrakk created the only thing powerful enough to defeat himself.
👆
Mandrakk eating stories doesn't make him beyond the Source, because the Source is the blank page, 'God', who sent Mandrakk from outside story to investigate the story inside of it. He was corrupted and turned into the entropy of the very concept of story -- but not before he created the Thought Robot -- the most powerful idea in creation that is capable of becoming as powerful as he needs to be to defeat anybody. The ultimate defender. Mandrakk and the Thought Robot/Superman are the ultimate concepts of the Overvoid. The ultimate duality of the very concept of story and not story.Perpetua, like Manhattan, are just mechanism through which story is developed. With negative energy [Crisis/Reboot energy] or with positive energy [Anti-Crisis/Legacy energy]. By characters believing in good. By characters believing in bad. By characters being selfish. By characters being selfless. But all of those mechanisms -- all of those ways to tell the story, are still ultimately intrinsic to the concept of story itself -- of which Mandrakk came outside from, in contact with, and became its ultimate hyper-devourer. Perpetua using the Final Crisis events with Darkseid/Mandrakk for her own purpose doesn't negate any of this.
Alright, so in order to dissect this comparison between Mandrakk and Perpetua, I think it’s first important to note how the Morrison and Snyder cosmologies portray “God” and the implications they have on the impressiveness of these characters.
The way you’re looking at this, Phil, is taking Mandrakk as he was portrayed under Morrison’s cosmology, then looking at Perpetua through the lens of Morrison’s cosmology to place Mandrakk above her, without actually looking at how Snyder portrays “God” or “the ultimate concept” (which is much different than the way Grant does it) and how Snyder fits Mandrakk and Perpetua in that context. I think either way, Perpetua is far above Mandrakk or Thought Robot, but let’s look at how God is portrayed under Morrison and under Snyder before I bring in Perpetua/Mandrakk.
God under Morrison
As you said, in Morrison’s cosmology, The Overvoid is the unfathomable mind of God, untouched by story or duality. It first becomes aware of itself when it notices the DC Multiverse and defines itself in relation to this story-generating Multiverse. Interestingly enough, when the concept of the Overvoid is introduced by Morrison, it is said that upon the discovery of the DC Multiverse, Mar-Novu (Monitor) and Mobius (Anti-Monitor) are born from the Overvoid (i.e. they are also born from “outside story” and enter the story), with these two entities acting as “the opposite, the conflict generator, the story-machine.” This description makes it sound as though Mobius and Mar-Novu, like Mandrakk, are aspects of the Overvoid, specifically the Overvoid being split into 2 by being introduced to the concept of story.
It is said that this “schism” that occurred as a result of the birth of Monitor and Anti-Monitor left the Overvoid “in shock”, and it quickly sought to contain the spread of the flaw, and thus prevent the loss of its own non-duality. It then sends Dax Novu to investigate, after which Novu is contaminated by duality and split into Mandrakk and Thought Robot.
My understanding of the Monitors under Morrison based on the above scan and description is as follows:
Overvoid: The non-dual, limitless mind of God.
Monitor/Anti-Monitor: Extensions of the non-dual, limitless mind of God that were born as a result of it being introduced to the concept of story and embody the concept of story.
Mandrakk: Extension of the non-dual, limitless mind of God that feels threatened by the concept of story and seeks to eliminate it.
Thought Robot: Extension of the non-dual, limitless mind of God that seeks to protect the concept of story.
There aren’t really any indications that one of these concepts is superior to the other. Mandrakk/Thought Robot may seem superior to Monitor/Anti-Monitor here in the sense that while they are embodiments of story born from God, Mandrakk and Thought Robot in a sense are “manipulators of story” and have a sort of “meta-understanding” of the concept of story as a result of being born outside of it.
The issue comes from the fact that the concept of story (i.e. the DC Multiverse) under Morrison has profound power over the Overvoid. It’s not a one way street where Monitor-Mind and its extensions are just infinitely beyond the Multiverse and the concept of story. Being introduced to the concept of story left God “in shock” and caused it to split into Monitor and Anti-Monitor, and Dax Novu being introduced to the concept of story caused him to split as well. Instead of just excising the concept of story from its perfection, the Overvoid had to bottle the DC Multiverse and prevent its spread, as well as send probes to study it. All of the Monitors in DC under Morrison are beings who came from “outside of story” and became part of the story.
What that means is that Mandrakk fundamentally is an extension of the Overvoid that became part of the concept of story (specifically the part of the Overvoid that felt threatened by story) and could be influenced by the concept of story. Once a character reaches the Overvoid (i.e. outside of the story), they are erased utterly and cannot interact with the story at all. So either the character is in the story and can be influenced by the story, or they simply do not exist at all. Mandrakk being a consumer of story within the story does not make him beyond the concept of story, as there are various cosmic threats within DC that have threatened to destroy the concept of story.
I think Anti-Monitor and Barbatos are good examples of this. AM is literally an extension of the Overvoid that sought to (and was capable of) destroying all stories in DC forever and leave the Anti-Matter universe as supreme for all of eternity. Barbatos was bringing stories into existence that were never supposed to become stories, and as a result was destroying the Dreaming, which would have destroyed “all stories forever”:
So AM and Barbatos were both beings within the story (with AM originating from outside the story) that sought to consume all stories, forever.
Another question you have to be asking yourself is: How would Mandrakk’s shenanigans help Perpetua? If Mandrakk was operating as a consumer of story on a meta-scale beyond what AM and Barbatos were doing and encompassed Perpetua’s domain in terms of what Mandrakk sought to destroy, why would Perpetua be whispering in Mandrakk’s ear egging him on? If Mandrakk succeeded, Perpetua would be destroyed too, no?
This scan actually confirms that Mandrakk himself was using crisis energy. Crisis energy is described here as energy based on selfishness, greed, and predation, the latter two literally being some of the words Morrison uses to describe the concept that Mandrakk embodies. The scan then proceeds to explain how Perpetua whispered into the ears of “whoever might hear her” so that she may “instigate crises”, while showing Mandrakk on the page (i.e. he is part of what is being described in the scan). So Mandrakk is an embodiment of crisis energy that Perpetua whispered to and egged on to help instigate (i.e. “bring about or initiate) a crisis.
Again, if Mandrakk’s shenanigans were meant to involve consuming Perpetua’s domain, she would not have egged him on and stoked further greed and selfishness within him.
God under Snyder
The concept of God under Snyder is actually much more impressive than Morrison’s concept of God. While under Morrison’s cosmology the Overvoid is clearly not omnipotent or omniscient (given that it was left “in shock” by the concept of story and parts of it were split into the aspects of Monitor/Anti-Monitor/Mandrakk/Thought Robot, and it was unable to simply destroy the DC Multiverse but had to bottle and probe it instead), Snyder’s cosmology kicks it up a notch. Instead of there being merely one Multiverse that God is afraid of, there are an infinity of Multiverses across the non-dual void that are governed and judged by God and his Hands, who exist at the end of the void. These Hands are not merely beings that God creates, but rather are literal Hands/extensions of God that are responsible for tending to an infinity of Multiverses. These Hands are literally able to traverse the Overvoid (which, as aforementioned, is also paradoxically part of God) and tear pieces from it to create life/stories (while Mandrakk is utterly consumed by the void upon direct contact with it). Interestingly, this is an area where Morrison and Snyder’s cosmologies line up, as in the former the Monitor and Anti-Monitor are born from the Overvoid itself after being introduced to the concept of story, while in the latter Perpetua created the Monitors from the Overvoid itself, “rent from the Overvoid into flesh”.
What’s important to note is that The Source/Presence under Snyder is NOT merely a body of consciousness that represents duality/the outside of story, but is actually the fundamental force that allows stories to be created. It is both the void and the stories themselves. As shown in the above scan, stories are created with connective energy, which is born of The Source. This is why we can’t just say “Mandrakk is beyond the concept of story”, because not only is he shown to be part of the story and can be influenced by story, but his creator under Snyder’s cosmology literally embodies the energies of story.
If we were to take a Morrison-esque view of Perpetua, then she would be an extension of God from outside story who literally created the concept of story that contaminated the Overvoid/Dax Novu and caused the creation of Mandrakk. She is the painter on the canvas that is the Overvoid, and she is able to draw on that canvas without the Overvoid being able to do anything about it. She is able to retain her individuality while traversing the non-dual Void that eats stories, because in a sense, she IS God.
None of this is even bringing into account that Perpetua has far better feats than Mandrakk in a cosmic/meta sense. Her literal first feat upon introduction was her destroying the Source Wall (which in Morrison’s cosmology surrounds the Monitor Sphere where these hyper-stories/thought-beings who are born from outside story exist and battle) despite the efforts of the JL and the Omega Titans to protect it, while she was in the weakest state she has ever been in. At near (but not at) her peak power, she battled the Darkest Knight in a clash that would have destroyed all of the DC Multiverse (including the Monitor Sphere) and was rippling through the Overvoid to the point where the Chronicler and The Hands (beings of the greater omniverse who exist at the end of the void) could feel/sense it, which has never happened before. Imagine if Morrison wrote Mandrakk vs. Thought Robot and had their clash ripple throughout the entire Overvoid/mind of God.
Arguing that “Mandrakk and Thought Robot don’t have as good environmental cosmic feats as Perpetua because they are ideas, not combatants” is kind of ridiculous too, because their nature is the same as the other Monitors (who Perpetua created), just on a greater scale (although I would question if Mandrakk/Thought Robot are even superior to Monitor/Anti-Monitor conceptually). If Perpetua can affect/cause the destruction of the hyper-thought realm that Mandrakk and Thought Robot battled in, that’s beyond mere environmental destruction, it means her power reaches and transcends the hyper-thought level of reality (which makes sense, because only Perpetua and her children are able to exist within the 6th Dimension in DC, which is a realm beyond the Monitor Sphere and even beyond the Source Wall, and governs everything imaginable and unimaginable). It also leaves no excuses for Mandrakk and Thought Robot to not cause comparable (or even close to comparable) damage to reality as a result of their fight.
Tl;dr, you can’t use a Morrison-based understanding of Perpetua while ignoring the Snyder-based understanding of Perpetua/Mandrakk and the cosmology they come from. Snyder’s cosmology is also much more impressive than Morrison’s, and even if we look at Perpetua from the lens of Morrison’s cosmology, she would still come off as (much) better.