Thanks.
To me it's just frustrating because it's clear when reading all of Snyder's run that Perpetua is meant to be the most powerful cosmic villain we've ever been introduced to.
you know that Source Wall that exists at the edge of everything, contains countless Gods/abstract entities, and behind which are the secrets of God? It was created to hold Perpetua.
You know that hand of creation that everyone has tried to speculate about and assumed it was The Source/The Presence? That was Perpetua's hand.
You know every crisis ever? Perpetua instigated them all.
Perpetua is behind everything, the barrier that seals all of creation/story was meant to seal her, she is the Hand of God.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZI don’t think Thanos with the regulators is above TOAA in a perfect system. By Acquiring the regulators, thanos made TOAA fallible. It doesn’t put Thanos above TOAA while he’s in his perfect system.
Yeah, personally I would rank CR Thanos and TOAA above anyone in DC sans The Presence (which is truly omnipotent and would literally erase all of Marvel ab aeterno in a blink) and maybe The Hands. TOAA completely transcends every cosmos (8 Multiversal/Multiverse-sized cosmoses) and is more powerful than all the other power in existence combined. Every infinity gauntlet in every universe, every God, every Beyonder, every Abstract (LT/Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Death), etc. I don”t see Perpetua/DK/God WW matching that level of power.@Phil @CD
I’ll get to your points later. Suffice it to say, I don”t think you can merge Morrison and Snyder”s cosmologies in a way that makes Mandrakk on par with Perpetua.
In marvel I would put TOAA in perfect system above Thanos with the regulators. The regulators didn’t bring Thanos above TOAA but brought TOAA down to his level.
A good example is Superman Vs Lex with green k.
With green K lex has beaten up Superman but that doesn’t mean that lex with green k is above Superman when he’s not near green k.
Same way with Thanos vs TOAA.
Also, I think a better way to word how Perpetua would be viewed in Morrison Cosmology is that she'd literally be the Hand reaching into the Overvoid and creating the concept of story against its will, causing it to split and seek to bottle said concept.
Perpetua = Aspect of God that is the Hand/Artist
Overvoid = Aspect of God that is the Canvas at the mercy of the Artist
Mandrakk = extension of the canvas that seeks to destroy what the artist created
While Perpetua will be replaced some day by a more powerful being, maybe even Darkseid, and while she one day will be forgotten, the Story of Superman will carry on. This is the most powerful force in the DC-Verse. You can call it Cosmic Armor, Anti Body or Superboy Prime but if necessary Superman will win and continue.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, the story of Superman is so powerful that it takes that + the entire connective story of the DC Multiverse to match a peer of Perpetua.
Because the + was available for this arc, and because it's still part of his story. If everything would fail, he would stomp her by himself and that is the essence of his story. In one Story Arc, he gets downed by Atlas and needs help, ohters defeat the new big evil, in another he dominates more powerful beings with ease. For the Perpetua Arc it was ok to sit back, Superboy proved that he is above her and every story in the DC-Verse originated from Superman because
even Perpetua came to be because of Superman. She wouldn't exist without him. This is why Morrisons depiction is so accurate, on a meta level there was nothing before Superman.
I'm glad you brought that up Abe, because it's one of the primary and most publicly accepted reasons for why CAS and Mandrakk are as powerful as they are. Unfortunately, in modern DC cosmology, they are concepts that can be surpassed or at least expanded upon in light of greater threats.
Mandrakk and Thought Robot were the ultimate ideas of good and evil at the edge of the mind of God, with the latter being powered by the fundamental story of Superman, and the former being powered by all the stories he had consumed. Thought-Bot in this context is said to be able to adapt to any threat, and was the ultimate defender of the story of the DC Multiverse.
The problem is when you factor in the expansions to the overall DC Creation in the past few years. Morrison's cosmology focused solely on the DC creation, with the Overvoid/God directly reacting to its every move. In this context, Superman is the ultimate engine of what constitutes "all of story" in existence.
However, everything we've learned in the past few years with Snyder's cosmology expands beyond Superman's story/The DC Multiverse's story. Ever since the original Dark Knights: Metal was released, all we've been told is that the DC Multiverse (and all its antibodies) is a single boat floating in an infinite ocean of Multiverses, and that there were threats from beyond these shores unlike anything the DC Multiverse had ever faced. The first of these was Barbatos, who threatened to consume all stories in DC forever (ala Mandrakk), and the next was Perpetua.
Perpetua in this context is connected to The Source, the font of all connective energy and thus stories, duality and non-duality (in a paradoxical but literal sense). She is connected to that which transcends not only Superman's story, but every possible conception of story on infinite Multiversal scales.
This is why the heroes of the DC Multiverse can't just defeat Perpetua with the story of Superman. It's the story of Superman + all that which sprung the story of Superman and all that which sprung from the story of Superman, The Source/Presence/Prime Monitor/God. Anytime defeating Perpetua is remotely within possibility, it involves connecting to this divine energy and uniting all stories of the DC Multiverse as one. Only then can a corrupted Hand of God be vanquished.
You can mention Prime seemingly defeating Darkest Knight in a penultimate battle, but if anything it showed that the story of Superman alone is not able to truly overcome beings like Perpetua or beings on her tier. Superboy believes he has DK on his knees, but ultimately he needs DK's power to get what he wants. This is why Superboy Prime can't/doesn't simply destroy DK when it looks like he has the upper hand, he goes on a suicide run that destroys DK's "Final 52" Multiverse, which kills SBP. Mind you, DK after this is perfectly fine, literally no worse for wear at all.
What matters much more is the ultimate battle, which features Golden WW who is connected to the entire story of the DC Multiverse (including all of its divergent histories and individuals) against DK. They fight all the way to the true dawn of creation and pimp smack Perpetua's hand of creation numerous times. It is this power that actually allows DC to rid itself of a super-celestial/Hand level being.
I understand Superman's story is a powerful force, but it is merely an (admittedly large and significant) piece of an infinity of stories connected by the demiurgic power that brought Superman and his world into being.
^That is not the point. The Point of Morrisons Final Crisis and of the "everything comes from Superman" is not in the DC-Verse like in the comic but real life (metatextual). Superman was the first comic Superhero. He started it all, and as many characters as one creates, as powerful as they will be depicted, they are only there because he was created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. His story will carry on. Perpetua will be forgotten. He can't lose in the metatextual perspective.
Everything I was referring to was meant in a metatextual sense as well. The Source represents the people/creative force who brought the story of DC into being (as well as ALL stories outside of DC in a metatextual sense, as the other Multiverses are likely other fictions, such as the Lovecraft Multiverse).
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Everything I was referring to was meant in a metatextual sense as well. The Source represents the people/creative force who brought the story of DC into being (as well as ALL stories outside of DC in a metatextual sense, as the other Multiverses are likely other fictions, such as the Lovecraft Multiverse).
Yet you miss the crucial point when you write "connected by the demiurgic power that brought Superman and his world into being". The demiurgic power is Superman from Action Comics #1. Everything comes from him. The writers like Synder will be forgotten, Perpetua will be gone, yet the story of Superman will carry on, it will be told long after all of us are dead. That is the meta level I am talking about and in this dimension Perpetua is nothing, just a spec of dust, a mediocre story arc that has no real impact. I know you made up your mind, so did I. I understand your point and disagree. You get my point I guess and disagree too. Which is fine.
Xsupreme, as much as I'd also want to take a few days off to write an essay on how I see things, I'm a bit busy. So I'll just point out a few things from the ground up that may change the entire way you look at things and then perhaps come back later when you've adjusted.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You know that hand of creation that everyone has tried to speculate about and assumed it was The Source/The Presence? That was Perpetua's hand.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZThe hand that provided the energy to create the Multiverse was not Perpetua's -- she was there just to shape the raw materials that were already there, from the Source:
Also, I think a better way to word how Perpetua would be viewed in Morrison Cosmology is that she'd literally be the Hand reaching into the Overvoid and creating the concept of story against its will, causing it to split and seek to bottle said concept.Perpetua = Aspect of God that is the Hand/Artist
Overvoid = Aspect of God that is the Canvas at the mercy of the Artist
Mandrakk = extension of the canvas that seeks to destroy what the artist created
Since this is your summary analogy, I figured it would be a good starting point to show it's not true, in order to give you time and think about things.
There's a lot of things that are incorrect here but, as a starting point, I'd advise you to look at:
- what is anti-crisis energy?
- what is crisis energy?
- what exactly is Perpetua powered by. What does it have to do with story?
- what exactly was TDK power by. What does it have to do with the story?
- what exactly was Wonder Woman powered by. What does it have to do with the story?
Then, once you answered those questions, you'll probably realize the difference between what powered Wonder Woman and what powered the Thought Robot.
If not, then I'll probably start posting scans, but it would be a lot of effort so it would be easier if you just figure it out by yourself.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm cool to agree to disagree. I just think Snyder's works have expanded the meta beyond what Superman represents, and I specifically believe the concept of what The Source represents >>>>> what Superman represents.
You wrote a length and well written response. I likely will never have the time or brain power to to provide a well written response.
That said, the way i interpreted what DC has been pushing for the past 10+ years is the essence of Superman. Superman in DC is considered the constant. DCU is alive and thriving because of him. Everything from DC is established around him. There can't be a multiverse without a Superman. It'd dies out. Superman, if alive, can't be changed. We know this because Dr.Manhattan, who is stronger than Perpatua couldn't change Superman. Mxy whom you believe is stronger than Perpetua (in the other thread you posted) couldn't change Superman's nature.
That essence of Superman, is given life in the Thought Robot. That story, of a alien baby of a dying world, sent to earth. The boy who is raised by parents and eventually becomes Superman. This story, it is considered the strongest force in DC. It's why in Superman Beyond, the question asked by Mandrakk, what do you want engraved in your tombstone is answered by Superman with "To Be Continued". It's also why Superman can do something that no one else is DC should, he can hold the bleed.
Now, I'm not saying Superman can't be killed. He has in past, but the thought robot is above that. It represents Superman.
As far as any other claim about Crisis energy or Anti-crisis being powering Wonder Woman is being interpreted wrong. WonderWoman was powered by Anti Crisis energy. As Luthor explained it, "is connective. It unites people through memory and history, reminding us we are small, but part of one epic story" He goes on to say that if they manage to build his machine, "in doings so, you will connect us all to the truth and create a powerful steam of anti-crisis energy you might be able to use to fight him"
Wonderwoman never did use "Superman's story"
Originally posted by xJLxKingYeah, Xsupreme is a bit confused about what powered Wonder Woman/TDK and the Thought Robot not being the same thing. Thus my suggestion to look back a bit and try to understand it.
As far as any other claim about Crisis energy or Anti-crisis being powering Wonder Woman is being interpreted wrong. WonderWoman was powered by Anti Crisis energy. As Luthor explained it, "is connective. It unites people through memory and history, reminding us we are small, but part of one epic story" He goes on to say that if they manage to build his machine, "in doings so, you will connect us all to the truth and create a powerful steam of anti-crisis energy you might be able to use to fight him"Wonderwoman never did use "Superman's story"