Perpetua vs Cosmic Armor Superman

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
We are engaging in a discussion. I”m just using scans and describing concepts at length because there are other people reading this thread who would probably like scans/explanations for context, and based on your last response, I figured my next post should have scans and explanations to make things as clear as possible.

You're keep making a monologue about a car, while I'm trying hear to say you have a flat tire and your engine is busted. Then you go "whatever, I'll come back in 3 days to tell you how awesome my car is".

It doesn't work that way.

Again, from the beginning.

Step 1.

The hand that provided the energy to create the Multiverse was not Perpetua's -- she was there just to shape the raw materials that were already there, from the Source:

This means that, for a simpler analogy, the lego blocks are already there -- she just had to shape them into the Multiverse.

She didn't provide the energy to create the Multiverse -- she just shaped it.

Do you acknowledge this, or do we need to stay on it a bit, even though it is very clear?

Xsupreme, as much as I'd also want to take a few days off to write an essay on how I see things, I'm a bit busy. So I'll just point out a few things from the ground up that may change the entire way you look at things and then perhaps come back later when you've adjusted.

The hand that provided the energy to create the Multiverse was not Perpetua's -- she was there just to shape the raw materials that were already there, from the Source:

Since this is your summary analogy, I figured it would be a good starting point to show it's not true, in order to give you time and think about things.

You’re mistaking the birth of Perpetua at the dawn of the Source (which exists at the end of the void in Snydermology) and the Hand of Creation that birthed the DC Multiverse (which has been shown multiple times throughout DC History). The latter is shown to be Perpetua’s hand in both the recent Justice League and Death Metal Runs:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pX9fTvcWtPLLm8t33Ym0uxn1bxW9SkUJO1rVtb3GXSuQ3GrPnqElqAPLZOUlTdj519jf3Un-cI0VhuvGQX8XsCF5EHiqvDXMMo_wE9mcb130pZqEt_1lff9ENYKXAcDZuTkxEKmHsg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9fHcNF3S2IVdLr-31sE146aA4G-uBiidwRAmR6afTO2UzTBqSCjdDdrqvoZ48DxMEkJj3bKJ5LkTFDraP6W840uZqUuX69JYRfJgKxt5ASYIzU64TYmRJTxD-vfPVQHO0PT-2sd7gg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SgYF1BwY512IenSY6uzGVLkn_AbyBBE1r2SZyg5rU4vmEjO9Lh-tkiAwxhkTvyB3Hw2BKaKEw1eX7KvixuTkLyAWbDq_2mY1glon5HerKRYqm5u-iPOe6yO_f7hY2xcnkjQFSZa_YA=s1600

I also think you’re misconstruing the nature of Perpetua’s power. Perpetua is like a combination of Lucifer and Michael; she is literally a Hand of the Source entrusted with the energies of the Source to shape Multiverses and bring them into being. The scan you posted literally says she is supposed to ultimately “return her energies to the Source”, meaning she is the one who wields the demiurgic power that brought the DC Multiverse into being, as well as the one who shaped it. It is confirmed numerous times that Perpetua wields energies granted by the Source that she uses to create and shape Multiverses. The “Raw Materials” refer to said energy:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/vhxIgMejHMTgV2ckgIspr75cI8h1VEx5WGBB47dQvdiOfrtlJ8p1BmJRP02g5fwGSQZZ5CeQD3NUJ3Cr0trLHFyM9jVNVSSiLoYChpNdUroh7ig4BS6B4rNfMnqsS2VeGa57qs2_Hg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GH5ZrJbAWPYTmRLRX7CG0ON05EFb-WGCplkCUUs0p7YbB773SD9DXSSrYShByy9aqvR5yodWH6_MwIG_WNM1P8k6hINjuEbcBFz-2p2L75eZb4YSw4ZjxO-8NZVGxj4CkxNkclZ7Zg=s1600

“Throughout the void, beings like Perpetua are tasked with starting Multiverses. They do this using connective energy, born of the Presence, of the Source.”

So yes, Perpetua is literally a Hand of God.

There's a lot of things that are incorrect here but, as a starting point, I'd advise you to look at:
- what is anti-crisis energy?
- what is crisis energy?
- what exactly is Perpetua powered by. What does it have to do with story?
- what exactly was TDK power by. What does it have to do with the story?
- what exactly was Wonder Woman powered by. What does it have to do with the story?

Then, once you answered those questions, you'll probably realize the difference between what powered Wonder Woman and what powered the Thought Robot.

If not, then I'll probably start posting scans, but it would be a lot of effort so it would be easier if you just figure it out by yourself.

You don’t have to go through the trouble of posting scans. I feel like I should post some scans that make it clear how Mandrakk operates and what his limits are, though. I’m actually surprised nobody has brought this up yet. Let’s take a look at...The Unexpected!

We learn in The Unexpected comic series that when Superman defeats Mandrakk, he was not erased by the Overvoid, but rather fell into the Dark Multiverse. Barbatos chained the defeated Vampire God and kept him as a slave in his weakened state. We learn here the first piece of evidence that contradicts the claim of Mandrakk transcending any character within the story of the DC Multiverse (sans Superman’s). Mandrakk is unable to feed on dark matter and the stories of the Dark Multiverse:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/BwrrOth7KZydvhVUOKB0MPu-efuc2fWSM2EmirCbRF6p1jb7EFwjKBO5kuSPL82SBRPkkc96NPBWSur4frawq6AY8SgLRr-yTdmEKBfh_lJHZp9hMaN1BQVxTT092e2Fm8W5O7II5w=s1600

From that, we also learn that Mandrakk is ONLY capable of feeding on positive energy, and is referred to as the “Anti-God” numerous times, a moniker that Anti-Monitor has also worn:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jk6dylEl5LiOlnsI5npZK2Hh_2aXq3N37xZvQSGVl2kFBGmh_-iGSNOaTKjV5QLXlxHeSvTLmYhMFt87wZdPypgungTaH7B-_23JFFJvQhLdVi4BmMY-pTmhEupgg-cdBPayCPEwHQ=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yIbw29mvDSj9pUMMDf0T1AR-Z45MOeAklABEygNXi65HcsrlaYUjp2DGK7pXsrMPWHUje6LSEU-2fy5DMcUkWreCLEuM31BbwcW0HlSLAUU1SMvkL0i7vdz1Mzo2vnznQZIZUsox1A=s1600

If Mandrakk reaches the Multiverse, he’ll feed on all creation! All positive matter!

Mandrakk reminisces about his battle with Superman, then claims that while Neon is powerful (for reference he is able to mold and remold creation with the power he received from the World Forge, but more on that in a bit), he ultimately cannot warp Mandrakk because Mandrakk is not of creation:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ggHQYHNMzFG4aTqOpN9eMjBFCeFTygh7KmuwpW8bbtQKpcuBUW_gUZ4hL5xwAWmhuJgBgfLZmvHcCmUrllgoEyeV19cpW9WrQeeRumUfx8xk_l9vt85h03ClOqQB7hvVXnpTThffYw=s1600

So Mandrakk overcomes Neon and feasts on him. Before this, Mandrakk’s acolyte Quench (who is a rival to Neon of sorts and received the power of destruction from the World Forge. Neon wields the power of creation/creation-warping, Quench wields the power of nothingness/destruction) attacks Mandrakk. The power up Quench received from the World Forge was so great that if left unchecked, he would have destroyed Nil (!) and the entire positive matter DC Multiverse with it. This might be Mandrakk’s best feat yet, because despite Quench’s unrestrained Nil-destroying power, Mandrakk is pretty much able to “lol nope” him and feast on him in the same way he did Neon, despite being weakened prior (although it’s possible he was restored to full power with the piece of Nth Metal and the energies he had consumed from Neon + Quench, more on that later):

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3e8SV7UBfBvQy11Jo8JPS6i1dDn_NFPjECXB49sHqreAElxoJcV-gPn1adYxfdkbn_P8D7rM-uSTShE_yAAumhgYCFEeuQY0v3pJ3aOUXwDURcx-0iditi43sjfqdodm6ldOWFYIBA=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/K6T5k2uivzR-S5uMoV7HNcTWJEfAzdrMiWDX9FOTNME9t1xh33AiiDxaaiG-nraymXWbC06Z6KxBMJ8P_tDKVbyBgpahOEPQSoEwza0zfqp1qZVl0NePJo2x_NLsp5SfE34BoXDrSg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ohEC1ulnRdhjJKT2anvyQYqFKPNXW91I5KpHpzeYCJw89v6JWw0-Mz5vBQqNfhqM4ilc66FblT3PUpri87PNRpdKBWdMs6LqiT1znIA7mIJJCj3A_D4bjOHEXDAKhJxJHI3hnmM3Yw=s1600

Interestingly, after Neon and Quench are “feasted on” by Mandrakk, they are not erased wholly from existence or transferred into Mandrakk’s being, instead their souls are sent to the World Forge. Neon states that when people die, their energies are returned to the World Forge. In most cases, this process would likely be unavoidable, but Neon and Quench are able to escape by combining their world-Forge granted powers:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/wKPmrHM0XtEEkuF95Am7j82xCbjGmdpOik6NpkQJ-Q2oreANIcroryOv2eDKkctdO1TA9A_grsxpoNr7spTfWFC9jEO6JByrYrOToiPvC9eSS_pMfsHXZ42Gl2hNHPNbDxD-NOpfQA=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pjJ0l3xqrhRikGkrubYlvO-bKVYVw39VlFCEjkkGAMRPjlFHK0xIaTKQbCFkpfF1v6IRwL3p24xpAkZLjLvhhnP8MFn6WzQkRSqETO84pgfvl1gHdh1L7YAFZZPPXbRgQVm7Hr5wnA=s1600

Neon and Quench are resurrected to Nil. It is at this point that Neon figures out the truth about Mandrakk. The comic implies through both statements and feats/results that this truth goes beyond what Superman or the Monitors realized/could do about Mandrakk. Mandrakk talks shit to Neon about how small he is, how “Barbatos could barely chain him” and how “Superman in Cosmic Armor could only banish him”, and that Neon stood no chance. But Neon realizes the truth that Mandrakk cannot be destroyed (at least not by him or any so-called “champion” prior, including Thought Robot and the Monitors):

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/bg82ZvMDC3ctmpQfZiiJMn0zxSyXBVpNLxttEwqZNdvmRpowL9VEW5JZR3ag4RTJURc8IJfZEjFKli_t5HX9CiN_pbrdb3ZEGquoYDrbuW13_wnmlDsgLUvrcwykIxZ_mL0E7uNugQ=s1600

”I didn’t realize until Mandrakk...until his story of endless defeat and rebirth, the Monitors, Superman, and every champion who tried and failed to destroy him…”

Here’s the key: Neon states that his “fires of creation” acquired from the World Forge cannot destroy. But they do allow him to alter the fundamental structure of reality at all levels (anti-matter, positive matter, and dark matter). Thought Robot and the Monitors sought to (and failed to) destroy Mandrakk, so Neon finds another solution. Neon tells Mandrakk that his prior statements about being beyond creation were wrong, and that nothing can resist the fires of creation. Neon uses this power to literally alter Mandrakk’s nature and make it so that he is incapable of feeding on positive matter/bleed, and instead must feed on dark matter for sustenance. Mandrakk states that his own fundamental nature has betrayed him, and now he feels no call to consume bleed/positive matter, replaced by the call of the dark:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yAf5iiaqQI32zUpS1fDfp7l-6EOuNSxYr3gVPV_SX1_ZLChaJ9uvPTCz0dKCvRubWNwNbGzt4Lt21eMOaVIt-JVyxFjYcNJEp3Yonj0bi5gjHTIdRrKW1tUbUlKsMDIQx3yHkJ5-9g=s1600

”Yes, you drank my blood. Yes, you killed me. But that’s not the end...You said you stood outside the laws of Creation. It’s actually simple...you were wrong.”

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Hk6EyoxeGfGViVG0GIRzFNlJyWPcOTzXH4s2SgBYbGcUptOBtCPpCIxUkkeqZlaXVLJYAVfm9eFBKZ1OovfT0kWDMY5ZcZpedJNcQ65lPu1rCmDlh89x9j_GNSGgiL4cCSzEaORZCA=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ir7AFZW6FmlJyKXQifWVKfdQbX5P-lpMPaHSY2TcJO1XopheWU_fMsK5r1UR9SXdEjQT4TvH2rNp5vVyYVj__p3kNWWg23DV54_H7dXZ5AskSeOQSPB4w65uCA56zeqgqkMrdot8wg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/RG6AHTZmDTlNvn_o-0fsRnVWddJXg7tVgINc_mxFnBYf2Vg7noTswkdg8qYCM-mBMirhdu4bD8J-1qwhQaxMz0Mn0E5aAuUXFl6ckvVIuFUhV-VFkayuQZyfi28xtiSCfUDKfaPuOg=s1600

”Superman, the Monitors, they were all wrong! I don’t need to destroy you...I need to change you!”

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/XcsEakmRAuqqERfb_gQr3s-pxQSB66qCq50RKMvmBfaTYfWY1XV2-6HoIHTINA8jLWBPgZYcHbijd1r-nZgFnYUvrI0Ik4sqJBZOywpg2oBH76P9DpYFhvplV52j0faqJK9xNtKJjQ=s1600

”The fires of creation, they cannot destroy. They won’t let me. So I turned the Vampire-God, the Tormentor...into something good. Where once you fed on life, where once you hungered for positive matter, now...only dark matter will sustain you.”

It is mentioned REPEATEDLY In this comic series that Mandrakk feeds only on “positive matter” and literally cannot feed on dark matter (I.e. he does NOT transcend all aspects of creation, as Neon ultimately realizes). Mandrakk is referred to as an “Anti-God” numerous times ala Anti-Monitor. And some energy (likely pieces of the tenth Metal of pure possibility) from the World Forge is able to give Quench the ability to destroy Nil and the entire positive matter Multiverse, and Neon the ability to overpower and alter Mandrakk’s fundamental nature.

So no, Mandrakk is not outside of Creation’s ability to thwart and warp. Mandrakk only feeds on the “positive matter” energies/stories, his power does not fully encompass or escape the effects of the powers of creation. Perpetua literally created the concept of the World Forge existing and it has energies capable of warping the concept of Mandrakk. Even World Forger in his true Sixth Dimension state is swinging around the energies of pure possibility from the World Forge with ease. And he only embodies the power of his domain (I.e. World Forger is the embodiment of the concept of the power that warped Mandrakk), while Perpetua is able to shape it. Even the combined domains of Monitor (positive matter that Mandrakk sought to consume), Anti-Monitor, and World Forger amped to be able to shape their domain with a piece of the totality were specks compared to Perpetua’s control of reality upon acquiring nearly full power.

Upon further review, I don’t even think Mandrakk would be able to defeat Monitor/Anti-Monitor/World Forger in their true states, if a portion Forger’s energies can just easily warp the concept of Mandrakk entirely.

I understand Mandrakk was weakened, but the point is mainly that he was NEVER an all-consuming entity that transcended story, because he literally cannot feed on all of story, only the positive matter/bleed stories, and there are energies in the Multiverse that are specks to Perpetua but are able to warp the concept of Mandrakk.

Combine that with all the stuff about Mandrakk being a “scion of Perpetua”, Mandrakk being confirmed to use crisis energy, Perpetua having vastly better feats than Mandrakk, etc, and I just don’t see how you can possibly have Mandrakk above Perpetua unless you somehow look at Mandrakk and the DC cosmology under Morrison and try to fit Perpetua in Snyder’s DC cosmology from a Morrison point of view, while also ignoring how Snyder’s run has directly shown Mandrakk and compared him to Perpetua and he comes up far short.

Maybe Morrison’s run didn’t specifically mention that Mandrakk could only feed on positive matter/stories because at the time that was what encompassed all of story. Dark Knights Metal introduced us to a whole new realm of story and possibility, and DC/Snyder decided to say that this realm is outside of Mandrakk’s influence and the World Forge contains energies that can affect Mandrakk more completely and utterly than Thought Bot ever did.

At this point, you might want to ask yourself questions such as:

What does Mandrakk feed on?
Why can’t Mandrakk feed on Dark Matter?
What is nth metal?
What is tenth metal/element x?
What are the implications of a portion of World Forge power being able to warp Mandrakk’s fundamental nature in the realm of hyper-thought that Thought Bot/Mandrakk/Monitors existed and battled in?

Any weird "a" with a trademark symbol is an apostrophe. I typed that part up on my phone, no idea why it keeps doing that.

You’re mistaking the birth of Perpetua at the dawn of the Source (which exists at the end of the void in Snydermology) and the Hand of Creation that birthed the DC Multiverse (which has been shown multiple times throughout DC History). The latter is shown to be Perpetua’s hand in both the recent Justice League and Death Metal Runs:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ pX9fTvcW...TkxEKmHsg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9fHcNF3S2...PT-2sd7gg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ SgYF1BwY...jQFSZa_YA=s1600

I also think you’re misconstruing the nature of Perpetua’s power. Perpetua is like a combination of Lucifer and Michael; she is literally a Hand of the Source entrusted with the energies of the Source to shape Multiverses and bring them into being.

In that equation, Perpetua isn't Michael and Lucifer. She is solely Lucifer in terms of purpose.

We know for a fact that the raw energy required to build the Multiverse [i.e. the Demiurge/Michael] comes from the Source itself:

And then, like Lucifer, she shaped it into its form:

Again, you must be able to first understand this point, before you can understand anything else.

How did she give shape to the Multiverse? Using the seven Dark Energies which are Perpetua's power:

Crisis Energy:

Do you understand now the mistake you make?

You're acting as if the "raw materials" are separate from the actual power. As if the Source already brings the Multiverse into being, and Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer. This is explicitly NOT the case. It is said the Hand are tasked with BIRTHING (birth: the beginning or coming into existence of something) Multiverses using connective energy (i.e. the energies of the Source that Perpetua is said to have been "entrusted with" and must "return to the Source", but corrupted into crisis energy).

It's the exact same thing as a combination of Lucifer and Michael. The Presence/Source gives Michael/Perpetua the energy to birth a Multiverse, and then Lucifer/Perpetua shape the Multiverse. It's not like the Multiverse already exists and then Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer, otherwise she would not be "birthing" the Multiverse.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You're acting as if the "raw materials" are separate from the actual power. As if the Source already brings the Multiverse into being, and Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer. This is explicitly NOT the case. It is said the Hand are tasked with BIRTHING (birth: the beginning or coming into existence of something) Multiverses using connective energy (i.e. the energies of the Source that Perpetua is said to have been "entrusted with" and must "return to the Source", but corrupted into crisis energy).

It's the exact same thing as a combination of Lucifer and Michael. The Presence/Source gives Michael/Perpetua the energy to birth a Multiverse, and then Lucifer/Perpetua shape the Multiverse. It's not like the Multiverse already exists and then Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer, otherwise she would not be "birthing" the Multiverse.

The raw materials to build are already there, Perpetua doesn't create them from scratch, she just shapes them using the 7 energies. The Source EXPLICITLY creates the raw materials and EXPLICITLY sends Perpetua to SHAPE them into a functioning Multiverse. She is Lucifer. The power of God -- the demiurge, the "Michael" who creates those materials to be shapen, is actually the Source. The power to shape the Multiverse from that raw demiurge is that of Lucifer [as demonstrated]. Perpetua is the latter part of that equation, as the Source provides the raw materials.

She is not the creator of the raw materials for the Multiverse, that is the Source itself -- she is the shaper.

This can't be any more clear, unfortunately, Xs. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

The raw materials are the connective/crisis energy. This energy is explicitly given to Perpetua and the Hands from the Source. Hence why your scan says initially she was "given raw materials" and then is said to have to "return her energies to the Source", the raw materials are the energy.

So an unseen Hand pulls together connective energy from the Source and gives this energy to Perpetua so that she can go out to the blank, empty Overvoid and birth/shape a Multiverse of matter. This is literally how Michael and Lucifer's jobs collectively are described, with Michael birthing the matter and Lucifer shaping it into form:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/6029898-8553585363-5ekFN.jpg

She is literally birthing and shaping matter using the energy the Source gave her. She is even able to tear off pieces of the Overvoid to create/shape the guardians of her new Multiverse (The Brothers Three).

I don't really see the distinction you're drawing. You're acting like the raw materials are not the demiurgic connective energy said to be given to The Hands by The Source, but rather that the Source is like "Here's the matter, you go shape it. Oh and here are the energies of creation, that”s a whole other thing you gotta give back after you shape that matter.” The Seven Energies of Creation/The Seven Unnatural energies are the raw materials, and both birth the Multiverse and give it shape.

Edit: Perpetua not creating the the energies that birthed the Multiverse is irrelevant, because neither did Michael.

I also feel like this topic has become completely irrelevant, the meat of the discussion should be Mandrakk being fundamentally warped by a power/concept Perpetua created. As well as the whole thing about Mandrakk being beyond the concept of story/beyond creation being wrong too.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The raw materials are the connective/crisis energy. This energy is explicitly given to Perpetua and the Hands from the Source. Hence why your scan says initially she was "given raw materials" and then is said to have to "return her energies to the Source", the raw materials are the energy.

So an unseen Hand pulls together connective energy from the Source and gives this energy to Perpetua so that she can go out to the blank, empty Overvoid and birth/shape a Multiverse of matter. This is literally how Michael and Lucifer's jobs collectively are described, with Michael birthing the matter and Lucifer shaping it into form:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/6029898-8553585363-5ekFN.jpg

She is literally birthing and shaping matter using the energy the Source gave her. She is even able to tear off pieces of the Overvoid to create/shape the guardians of her new Multiverse (The Brothers Three).

I don't really see the distinction you're drawing. You're acting like the raw materials are not the demiurgic connective energy said to be given to The Hands by The Source, but rather that the Source is like "Here's the matter, you go shape it." The Seven Energies of Creation/The Seven Unnatural energies are the raw materials, and both birth the Multiverse and give it shape.

Edit: Perpetua not creating the the energies that birthed the Multiverse is irrelevant, because neither did Michael.

The 7 energies [and their opposites] allow her to shape the Multiverse to her liking. That's why Luthor was hunting for them, to giver her the power back and allow her to reshape it:

The totality of her power is, in fact, just one aspect of the power in the Multiverse -- the 7 negative forces in the Multiverse:

And there are two poles of power in the Multiverse, also the antithesis of her:

The 7 Energies were used to forge/shape the Universe, just in case it was not clear the first time.

And we know for a fact that the Totality of the power that was at Perpetua's hands was inferior to the power of Dr. Manhattan when wielded by Wonder Woman:

..and the only reasons she lost was because she was afraid to unknot the timeline. So not only is the totality of her power half the power poles in the Multiverse, she is the weaker half, too. In fact, in order for her power to awaken, the "Doom" [lol, comics] in the Universe, the negative psychic energy was needed to rise -- thus why she, this great being, needed Luthor and the whole storyline to do so.

Another fact describing Perpetua is that throughout the entire Death Metal she is externally powered by the Crisis Energy of the Dark Matter Multiverse, after she exhausted her power in the battle with Wonder Woman:

So that's her essentially 'sundipping' -- ALL throughout the event until the energy is cut off, her power begins to wane, and she dies.

In essence, the facts would be that
- she SHAPES [Lucifer] creation with the 7 forces, she does not self-CREATE [Michael] the raw materials , the latter are provided by the Source
- Her TOTALITY of power is inferior to Dr. Manhattan.
- There are multiple versions of her powers all throughout he appearances, be it gaining in power [needing Luthor's long-con plan to turn the psychic energy towards Doom], the one with all but a fraction of her power returned [you know...the one who destroyed a Universe and then needed time to regain her power to do so again], the one who with ALL the crisis energy would have lost to Manhattan's power were it not for Wonder Woman chickening out, and the one who is CONSTANTLY amped by the Crisis energy, until she is not, and she is killed.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I also feel like this topic has become completely irrelevant, the meat of the discussion should be Mandrakk being fundamentally warped by a power/concept Perpetua created. As well as the whole thing about Mandrakk being beyond the concept of story/beyond creation being wrong too.

Before I continue with a response, I have a few questions, namely:

What do you mean when you say Perpetua can only shape, not create? Are you saying the Presence gave her two separate things, one being connective energy and the other being the matter of the Multiverse? In other words was the nature of the DC Multiverse”s matter as positive matter/anti-matter/dark matter predetermined by The Source before Perpetua birthed and shaped the DC Multiverse?

I think these questions are key in figuring out where Mandrakk fits.

The Source put her in the middle of a sandbox. He handed her tools (bucket, some water, and shovel). She then created sandcastle.

She didn't create the sand. It just "molded/manipulated" into a castle.

The chronological steps seem to be...

1.) The Source creates the raw materials required to construct a multiverse.
2.) Perpetua is tasked with shaping those raw materials into a physical creation.
3.) Perpetua creates the general framework/superstructure of the multiverse.
4.) Perpetua creates her children.
5.) Perpetua's children(namely WF) populate the multiversal superstructure with worlds/life, and subsequently monitor said creation across all levels.

6) It all gets removed/destroyed/erased leaving only the core structure
7) The hands/judge remake the multiverse with the correct energies

Just to post interview with Scott Snyder
https://youtu.be/_kI__lSBFe8

Basically
Primal monitor is the overvoid in vertigo
Source and presence seem to be the same thing
Perpetua molded the first multiverse but Lucifer and Michael made the second.

what a fukcin mess 😂

Snyder is an idiot. In other news, water is wet and carver is a troll.

i used to think pretty highly of snyder. american vampire is one of my favourite books of the last couple decades. but yeah, jl has ruined him in my eyes. 🙁

Originally posted by leonidas
i used to think pretty highly of snyder. american vampire is one of my favourite books of the last couple decades. but yeah, jl has ruined him in my eyes. 🙁

Issue is, Scott just did not respect previous writers or already established mythos. He just went with what he wanted, hoping people like his isolated story. Now he has to go on interviews and explain silly questions because he couldn’t bother to think about it.

i didn't like the dark multiverse--the idea was ok, but the way it was presented in metal was an utter disaster imo. metal was so awful....