😂
probably seems that way... funny thing is, i actually really like the characters in dc. i just really dislike what is being done to some of them. i swear, snyder seems like he's got an account on here or comicvine and just...panders to feats and scale, rather than concentrating on story. and it's really just the 'cosmic' stuff i dislike of late.
in the history of comics, since i had my first superman encyclopedia back in kindergarten, and used to listen to a superman RECORD (yes, vinyl) superman has always been defined the role of superhero for me and has always, secretly, been my favourite character. so it's not "dc" that i dislike--it's the direction is all. when i first joined this forum i was in the minority preaching FOR dc and it's characters. things have changed now, so i'll often play devil's advocate and defend the underdog, but i really do love some of the dc characters. i also hate seeing opinions simply shouted down, so sometimes i stick my nose in when i don't even really care about a thread. character flaw. 👆
Originally posted by MrMind
where was this even said? sounds like fan fic
And it’s been hinted a couple times now that Perpetua created the first multiverse using the 7 unnatural energies. After she got locked up, the judge of the source mentioned the multiverse would be corrected. That said, we don’t know the exact way the new multiverse was created. We just know it happened
I guess Snyder in video explain it was the source/presence through Michael and Lucifer
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Snyder said it in the videoAnd it’s been hinted a couple times now that Perpetua created the first multiverse using the 7 unnatural energies. After she got locked up, the judge of the source mentioned the multiverse would be corrected. That said, we don’t know the exact way the new multiverse was created. We just know it happened
I guess Snyder in video explain it was the source/presence through Michael and Lucifer
interesting, that makes sense, would be cool if they show it on panel, it would tie things up beautifully
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Before I continue with a response, I have a few questions, namely:What do you mean when you say Perpetua can only shape, not create? Are you saying the Presence gave her two separate things, one being connective energy and the other being the matter of the Multiverse? In other words was the nature of the DC Multiverse”s matter as positive matter/anti-matter/dark matter predetermined by The Source before Perpetua birthed and shaped the DC Multiverse?
I think these questions are key in figuring out where Mandrakk fits.
Originally posted by Galan007
The chronological steps seem to be...1.) The Source creates the raw materials required to construct a multiverse.
2.) Perpetua is tasked with shaping those raw materials into a physical creation.
3.) Perpetua creates the general framework/superstructure of the multiverse.
4.) Perpetua creates her children.
5.) Perpetua's children(namely WF) populate the multiversal superstructure with worlds/life, and subsequently monitor said creation across all levels.
To further answer the question of why the Multiverse is positive/anti/dark matter -- it's because as specified, that is the 'classic' form. So essentially what all of the beings similar to Perpetua have used to shape the Multiverse as before her:
Another important fact to note is that while she gives the shape of the Multiverse -- the raw materials of creation, such as the energy of the Dark Multiverse are a threat to her:
And that is further emphasized when Luthor using Perpetua's power is nothing to the energy of the Dark Multiverse:
Originally posted by xJLxKingWhat Snyder responded with "whatever they used, whatever they called upon to restart it, that's the Presence" which earlier in the issue he used interchangeably with the Source.
Just to post interview with Scott Snyder
https://youtu.be/_kI__lSBFe8Basically
Primal monitor is the overvoid in vertigo
Source and presence seem to be the same thing
Perpetua molded the first multiverse but Lucifer and Michael made the second.
Interetingly enough Snyder says that Perpetua's stature after shaping the Multiverse and getting stuck in the Source Wall is lost -- and her nature is diminished. And if she did what she was supposed to [die with the Multiverse, her essence goes into it and her energy -- her soul, essence, was supposed to ascend to the other beings] she'd not be.
One thing I'd recommend is you stay tuned on this topic to see what the Source is in Snyder's cosmology, and how that relates to the Morrison cosmology down the road -- you'll be surprised, lol.
The Snyder interview was pretty fascinating, and proves that Perpetua/God WW/DK are pretty much ants in comparison to the Ascended Hand, with the Ascended Hand/Judges of the Source “governing” nascent Hands like Perpetua.
Edit: Perpetua being a “diminished”/nascent Hand also leaves room for being such as current Darkseid to realistically surpass her.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZWell -- not quite ants. DK was about to kill the hands if God WW stopped fighting him:
The Snyder interview was pretty fascinating, and proves that Perpetua/God WW/DK are pretty much ants in comparison to the Ascended Hand, with the Ascended Hand/Judges of the Source “governing” nascent Hands like Perpetua.Edit: Perpetua being a “diminished”/nascent Hand also leaves room for being such as current Darkseid to realistically surpass her.
And the hands admit her decision saved them:
And I don't know if it's for certain that they're talking about Darkseid, but it's certainly implied [given recent issues] to be about him that will be the greater threat they need Diana to ascent with them in order to face:
I don't see this making any sense, no matter how much 'True Form' Darkseid is, but...
We'll see, I guess.
Originally posted by MrMind
I imagine DK would get oneshotted by the hands just like perpetua did
👆
Yeah, I don”t really buy that DK could have defeated The Hands like he boasted, given that the cosmic Raptor (which was described as a “blast of energy” from The Hands) was able to oneshot Peak Perpetua + her army + erect the Source Wall. My two working theories are:
A: DK was simply lying, he never would have stood a chance.
B: WW surrendering the Multiverse to DK and crisis energy/the Dark Multiverse would have given DK the power necessary to defeat The Hands.
It”s weird because The Hand tell WW she “saved” them, but that could just mean that WW didn”t surrender the Multiverse to DK and thus grant him the power necessary to destroy The Hand (option B).
Originally posted by Philosophía
Well -- not quite ants. DK was about to kill the hands if God WW stopped fighting him:And the hands admit her decision saved them:
And I don't know if it's for certain that they're talking about Darkseid, but it's certainly implied [given recent issues] to be about him that will be the greater threat they need Diana to ascent with them in order to face:
I don't see this making any sense, no matter how much 'True Form' Darkseid is, but...
We'll see, I guess.
I think he overestimated his own strength.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Well -- not quite ants. DK was about to kill the hands if God WW stopped fighting him:And the hands admit her decision saved them:
And I don't know if it's for certain that they're talking about Darkseid, but it's certainly implied [given recent issues] to be about him that will be the greater threat they need Diana to ascent with them in order to face:
I don't see this making any sense, no matter how much 'True Form' Darkseid is, but...
We'll see, I guess.
I think it might be Darkseid. The hand said lurking threat not a more powerful threat, unless it was stated somewhere else.
The hand rarely intervene so they need someone from the multiverse to protect it and they chose ascended WW.
Originally posted by xJLxKingDK didn't just brag -- he was stronger than her, and she knew it:
I’m sure he was able to beat them
DK bragged about being stronger than WW but lostI think he overestimated his own strength.
But she got stronger towards the end due to drawing her power from the positive energy of her allies fighting.
Anyway, this is neither here nor there.
Originally posted by DiesldudeI'm willing to bet Darkseid will be written above them. We'll see.
I think it might be Darkseid. The hand said lurking threat not a more powerful threat, unless it was stated somewhere else.The hand rarely intervene so they need someone from the multiverse to protect it and they chose ascended WW.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
When Morrison writes metaphysical he means it as a concept that comes out of the page and represents more than what he portrayed. He is literally fueling his story with the greatest story of what he perceives all time. The idea of Superman is the greatest story or idea that can exist under his pen. It is the antithesis of nothingness that erodes or eats that story and destroys all future stories. This idea will eclipse and persist past everything else. It's the idea that even when everything else gets erased that Superman will exist. If comics got erased the idea is that Superman would exist. In this story Superman's story was greater than total oblivion.
Obviously Batman is timeless as well and would exist as long but Morrison was using Superman as the ultimate foil.As far as feats and what he did go? Not so great. That's why the metaphysical is important because it's whatever you want it to be. Morrison wrote it that way as well. He wrote it to represent heroism and stories. If you can think of the most powerful idea that exists be that hope, love, freedom or scatporn; Superman represents that in the story.
A good contrast to a typical usage in metaphysical vs actual metaphysics is also a Morrison example in Ultra Comics. That comic was metaphysical in that it was talking to the "real world" of the comic and the readers in that sense were meant to represent our world. It's typically used that there's a real world beyond comics and that's a wink and a nudge to us. What Morrison also layered on is that it was also talking to "us" - the Carver9s of his world. The comic was for DC's normal "real world" and our real world. You can see this with the whole "don't read this or..." and Ultra realizing he needs to actually manipulate the comic while being back in his world/comic panels getting erased. I think that's a good example of layering and purposes while understanding the depths that Morrison will go and his intents.
Other examples are usually comedy like Mxy, She-Hulk, Deadpool etc. Punching writers while being beholden to writers in the next book. But Morrison is entirely serious with his application so it's an integral part.
And on the note of people like Ultra Comics; because they don't have typical feats you can't exactly quantify the power. Them getting put into battle threads belies the entire point of their character. There's a limit but where that limit is has no definition to what will and won't work. Could lose to Ultraman, could lose to Darkseid. Doesn't matter. It doesn't touch on what they do or what he does. It doesn't explain his metaphysical presence and power. We'll forget the metaphysical nature of Darkseid since every other writer did as well but it's not as blatant unless you interpret the panels as getting erased.
With Superman he's supposed to represent that even with every other story in history feeding someone so they can erase it all, his story will adapt and overcome. And that includes classics like Mein Kampf presumably.
It's not a tangible concept that has edges that can be leapfrogged into the next. It's bigger than feats and why you see so many different uses of it.
What makes that difficult is using it in threads. If someone deletes 30 omniverses and physically shoves his fist up CDTM's butthole so far that it looks like CDdad's nub, then that character is more impressive by feats by far than Thought Robot and you can argue they win easily. But taking Thought Robot as a concept to represent the ultimate would have him adapt and overcome as he's the ultimate answer to anything.
Logically it should have limits like the Overvoid itself, but if Morrison were writing it I've no doubt he'd do something with pages or turn him into a comic book or something stupid. It allows your minds to create your own headcanon and imagine and that's what Morrison wants. It can beat anything if you can think it. Ironically it's the antithesis to what normal comic debating is.
What Perpetua is limited by is the same thing she excels at; being a comic character limited by comics. Snyder is too stupid to fully understand what he thinks he's going for so instead of creativity you have an increase in scope and power. Her feats exceed Thought Robots, and her scale and whatnot. By every measurable metric she exceeds him. Even the story aspect he wants his characters to benefit from. But it's the story of the characters and not the stories of what they represent and mean to a grander scale.
It's like taking Carver9 and saying he's a Hulk fan who has a blackface and hands and possibly feet but the soles of his feet and palms of his hands are white. You described Carver but simply describing Carver doesn't represent what he means. Every person, child, dog, 3 lizards and 1:1 sexdoll he has touched represent Carver. What Carver looks like, has done, will do and his impact on the world, KMC and local orphanages are part of that. It's not just Carver walked to the store and bought 2 melons to stick his dick in. It's Carver walked to the store, and some kid kicked the chair out from under them across the city because they couldn't erase the memories and the cashier was creeped out and cheated on her husband later that week and ruined her marriage because her friend invited her out after hearing the story of this guy dry thrusting a cantaloupe in her aisle while winking at her. It's this accurate second hand story about Carver. It's your reaction, it's everything.
It's hard to convey that in a story and that's the difference between what Snyder tries to do and what Morrison does.
There's two different dialogues here and I don't think either are wrong with how they're going about it. Unique battle. Perpetua wins in a typical comic battle. Thought Robot wins based on whatever real world emotions you want to apply to him.
The question is; has Snyder covered enough bases to encompass what Morrison has written and Thought Robot represents? He's tried but I don't feel good about that being a yes answer. That's why I don't think Perpetua can come to the metaphysical and win in that regard too.
What you put more stock into is who wins but it's a nice break from the monotomy nonetheless. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. Except Alberto who understands nothing about either character - he's 100 percent wrong no matter what character he says.
😂 You typed that entire thing for nothing, debates aren't about the idea of what a character represents but that they can do. his feats suck ass but they're literally all we have to use in a versus. The idea of what a character is is one thing, but in a versus is all we have to measure what they can do, and have done. Perpetua wins, easily. none of what you're arguing for has any place in a versus. Versus debates are decided through facts, not your interpretation of the author's intent. point blank.