Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I’d counter argue with opinion vs intent. It’s kind of hard to compare it to a kid having a tantrum. When she restrains you in water bubbles for several panels/pages, blast you off with her hydrokinesis prior to that. Take away your ability to attack her, and rob you of something vital for you to survive via dehydration. I agree it’s questionable on how fast Flash was going but I wouldn’t emphasize the League holding back given the writer also had stated Mera wasn’t at 100 percent when she did any of this to begin with.Abnett simply gave her a good showing which isn’t even inconsistent if you factor in Ocean Master’s treatment of the Justice League and under Abnett how Mera treated Ocean Master. It just seems in her element Abnett has a high opinion of her.
This was after her fight against the JL
https://m.imgur.com/a/eRR3rWhat I meant by opinion vs intent was opinion is saying the league held back, they obviously weren’t in the same mind set as Mera and fighting aggressively if fighting at all. But it’s never said they were holding back that’s a conclusion we come to as readers ourselves
Intent though is the fact she was mentioned to not be at full strength “you see what she did to us” she wasn’t even at full strength is what the writer wanted us to know and she did that to the JL it was a power play to show where he views Mera at.
Then you have Johns who has Ocean Master do this to the Justice League
https://m.imgur.com/a/O1PYNHow does Mera compare under Abnett?
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/5kpJLgdThat’s twice under Abnett she wasn’t at her full strength by the way. I’d argue his intent suggest she’s just that powerful.
Superman and Wonder Man repeat it again afterwards.
https://postimg.cc/PNCg4CcF
https://postimg.cc/rdzjkr5B
They even wind up playing therapist on couch in the Watchtower later.
https://postimg.cc/210GMwLd
It was hammered home pretty hard they weren't trying to fight her.
As for the "take away your ability to fight" thing--Again, Superman and Wonder Woman never so much as raise a hand at her. They even break free of the bubble just fine once they realize she's going to choke Batman. Same for the Lanterns. If you agree that weren't really "fighting aggressively, if at all"...isn't that the definition of holding back?
Them complimenting her doesn't contradict any of that. It's like if the tantrum-throwing kid nails you with a pretty good shot. You'd acknowledge "Wow. She's got some fight in her." You'd still blow her out the water if you decided to actually fight.
An outlier feat would be an abnormal and unexplained power boost, which isn't what happened here. This was just happens when you let hax characters get free shots off.
Originally posted by Philosophía
👆It's a little bit of both -- although I'd say the outlier part a bit less. Nothing she showed there is an application of raw power that could be considered out of the ordinary, it's just that the application was to show off the versatility. The heroes were obviously going easy on her and wanted to calm and help her, but what we can deduce from that is that:
a). she can use her powers with finesse [when she removed the GL rings];
b). she can use it pretty quick to dehydrate [Flash not going particularly fast notwithstanding]
c). she can use it for BFR [Cyborg]It depends how you're seeing it -- obv most of the Justice League could still solo her if they get serious, but it's a good demonstration of what she can do overall.
Originally posted by StyleTime
It seems like intent to me. The comic explicitly states, and shows, that they aren't trying to fight. Their whole goal for the issue was to help her. They state it all throughout the issue, even in the scans above.Superman and Wonder Man repeat it again afterwards.
https://postimg.cc/PNCg4CcF
https://postimg.cc/rdzjkr5BThey even wind up playing therapist on couch in the Watchtower later.
https://postimg.cc/210GMwLdIt was hammered home pretty hard they weren't trying to fight her.
As for the "take away your ability to fight" thing--Again, Superman and Wonder Woman never so much as raise a hand at her. They even break free of the bubble just fine once they realize she's going to choke Batman. Same for the Lanterns. If you agree that weren't really "fighting aggressively, if at all"...isn't that the definition of holding back?
Them complimenting her doesn't contradict any of that. It's like if the tantrum-throwing kid nails you with a pretty good shot. You'd acknowledge "Wow. She's got some fight in her." You'd still blow her out the water if you decided to actually fight.
An outlier feat would be an abnormal and unexplained power boost, which isn't what happened here. This was just happens when you let hax characters get free shots off.
Pretty much. It was more a demonstration of what her powers can do, than a fight.
So they were just chilling in her hydrogen bubble looking like they were drowning for several pages and could of easily got out when ever they wanted? That wasn’t displayed in the comic your asserting your own opinion once again.
When I said take your ability to fight away I meant what she did to Flash and The Green Lanterns.
Also none of this even touches the fact that Ocean Master practically incapped Wonder Woman in Throne of Atlantis and then went on to one shot The Trinity and Aquaman and the same writer Abnett had a weakened Mera beat Ocean Master as well.
What’s the point of emphasizing did you see what she did to us and topping it off with mentioning she wasn’t at full strength? What’s the point of stating she wasn’t at full strength if the league wasn’t trying?
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
So they were just chilling in her hydrogen bubble looking like they were drowning for several pages and could of easily got out when ever they wanted? That wasn’t displayed in the comic your asserting your own opinion once again.When I said take your ability to fight away I meant what she did to Flash and The Green Lanterns.
Also none of this even touches the fact that Ocean Master practically incapped Wonder Woman in Throne of Atlantis and then went on to one shot The Trinity and Aquaman and the same writer Abnett had a weakened Mera beat Ocean Master as well.
What’s the point of emphasizing did you see what she did to us and topping it off with mentioning she wasn’t at full strength? What’s the point of stating she wasn’t at full strength if the league wasn’t trying?
With Ocean Master, we can't ignore context here either. Wonder Woman, explicitly again, states "I don't want to hurt you" when she had her arms around his neck. She could have ripped his head off if she wanted. Then she let go because the Atlanteans fired on her.
https://postimg.cc/VrRBNrCB
https://postimg.cc/Q9ZgqL5t
Superman only wants them to retreat, which he also explicitly states in your scan above. That's why he heat visions the water and doesn't just melt Orm. Then Orm attacks them while they are doing something else.
Even Aquaman tried to get them to lay down their weapons.
https://postimg.cc/Wddn7wDd
Atlantis just suffered a terrorist attack, and the JLA aren't trying to destroy a bunch of disaster victims.
On the issue of Mera being at full strength. You can acknowledge she's powerful and still have held back. It's like pointing out the tantrum throwing kid would beat any other kid.
I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. Are you arguing Superman or Wonder Woman wouldn't have slapped the shit out of Orm if they really wanted?
Originally posted by StyleTime
It's not opinion. It's, explicitly, what happened on panel. They say they don't want to fight...and don't fight. Saying they were trapped for "several pages" is misleading though, as the fight was a couple of seconds tops. Keep in mind, they weren't aware Mera could do some of this.With Ocean Master, we can't ignore context here either. Wonder Woman, explicitly again, states "I don't want to hurt you" when she had her arms around his neck. She could have ripped his head off if she wanted. Then she let go because the Atlanteans fired on her.
https://postimg.cc/VrRBNrCB
https://postimg.cc/Q9ZgqL5tSuperman only wants them to retreat, which he also explicitly states in your scan above. That's why he heat visions the water and doesn't just melt Orm. Then Orm attacks them while they are doing something else.
Even Aquaman tried to get them to lay down their weapons.
https://postimg.cc/Wddn7wDdAtlantis just suffered a terrorist attack, and the JLA aren't trying to destroy a bunch of disaster victims.
On the issue of Mera being at full strength. You can acknowledge she's powerful and still have held back. It's like pointing out the tantrum throwing kid would beat any other kid.
I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. Are you arguing Superman or Wonder Woman wouldn't have slapped the shit out of Orm if they really wanted?
It’s your interpretation of what happened on panel. What I’m going off of is what was explicitly actually stated.
The fight was a couple of seconds? Lol where are you even getting this information where was it stated the fight was a couple seconds?
You see the difference between what I’m stating and what your stating is the comic actually states what I’m saying. Your throwing in your personal beliefs into the mix.
2 pages/9 panels passed when Mera trapped Superman and Wonder Woman in water. So how am I being dishonest by saying pages. Go read the story count them yourself...
https://m.imgur.com/a/fI3Nm
This is with Mera trapping them and then focusing on the rest of the League. Comic ending with Batman stating she took them down
https://m.imgur.com/a/fI3Nm
In regards to your Ocean Master point. Wonder Woman could of snapped his neck? Based on what? Regardless could of isnt a point because that’s not what happened. A lot of stuff could happen you know what did happen https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/13/132594/2830405-justiceleague_16_thegroup_014.jpg
I don’t mind having interpretations or differing opinions on what takes place in a story but you should present opinions as facts and making up what if scenarios is pointless.
But...you're not going off what was stated. It was stated they were only trying to help Mera. It was stated they didn't want to hurt Ocean Master. On top of that, their actions matched the statements, especially in the case of Supes/Wondy. They literally never even tried attacking her.
You're literally looking at those statements, and going "I want to believe they were trying their hardest even though the actual dialogue and their actions says otherwise."
Wonder Woman had her arms around his neck, hence my comment about snapping his neck, then said she doesn't want to hurt him. Where is the what if scenario? Then she went to save Batman and Orm just attacked her. Your cropped scan cut that out though, so maybe you didn't realize it.
At what point is she fighting him? Then Superman heats up the water, and Orm attacks them while they're doing these other things. These are factually free shots...
Again, I'm asking what exactly are you arguing here? Do you think they wouldn't slap the shit out of either Mera or Ocean Master if they were actually trying?
Originally posted by StyleTime
But...you're not going off what was stated. It was stated they were only trying to help Mera. It was stated they didn't want to hurt Ocean Master. On top of that, their actions matched the statements, especially in the case of Supes/Wondy. They literally never even tried attacking her.You're literally looking at those statements, and going "I want to believe they were trying their hardest even though the actual dialogue and their actions says otherwise."
Wonder Woman had her arms around his neck, hence my comment about snapping his neck, then said she doesn't want to hurt him. Where is the what if scenario? Then she went to save Batman and Orm just attacked her. Your cropped scan cut that out though, so maybe you didn't realize it.
At what point is she fighting him? Then Superman heats up the water, and Orm attacks them while they're doing these other things. These are factually free shots...
Again, I'm asking what exactly are you arguing here? Do you think they wouldn't slap the shit out of either Mera or Ocean Master if they were actually trying?
you’ve been putting words on my post that I haven’t posted myself. When did I claim they were trying their hardest? Where did I claim they weren’t trying to help Mera?
I’ll make the statements that I made already. Mera trapped Superman and Wonder Woman in a water bubble for 2 pages and 9 panels? I stated pages. Was that false? Because my count it wasn’t.
I also stated she wasn’t at full strength when she fought the league. Does the comic go against that claim?
I did state she beat the League. But so did Batman so I wouldn’t see how that was false either.
Did Ocean Master not knock out Superman and Wonder Woman? Or am I missing something?
No, the bubble statement wasn't false. I said it was misleading because 9 panels/ 2 pages isn't a measure of time. I can drop that though to focus this discussion down more.
The other things are true as well, but as I said, you completely threw out context. You accused me of lying when I pointed out the comics explicitly show them not trying to fight. All those other things could be true with the JLA still holding back. They're not mutually exclusive.
This is why I keep asking you to clarify what your claim is. What are you saying here, exactly?
Originally posted by StyleTime
No, the bubble statement wasn't false. I said it was misleading because 9 panels/ 2 pages isn't a measure of time. I can drop that though to focus this discussion down more.The other things are true as well, but as I said, you completely threw out context. You accused me of lying when I pointed out the comics explicitly show them not trying to fight. All those other things could be true with the JLA still holding back. They're not mutually exclusive.
This is why I keep asking you to clarify what your claim is. What are you saying here, exactly?
You claimed the fight happened in seconds and I’m being misleading? When was the seconds thing stated?
Lol I provided the entire fight. How is that withdrawing context? People who read the Mera vs JL fight could make of it as they will. You act like you mentioned the fact she wasn’t at full strength when she fought the JL but wanted to throw in notions of your own. Which I’d agree the JL weren’t in the same mind state as Mera I’ve stated that. That doesn’t mean they’re going to let themselves get their asses handed to them either though...
My claim is I could logically see Mera doing well against a standard Superman if the Superman that fought her there is what we’d consider a standard Superman. The Superman that holds back and doesn’t want to harm anyone. Mera character wise isn’t like that and my claim is if we treat them off the portrayal of that fight I could definitely see her winning.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
You claimed the fight happened in seconds and I’m being misleading? When was the seconds thing stated?Lol I provided the entire fight. How is that withdrawing context? People who read the Mera vs JL fight could make of it as they will. You act like you mentioned the fact she wasn’t at full strength when she fought the JL but wanted to throw in notions of your own. Which I’d agree the JL weren’t in the same mind state as Mera I’ve stated that. That doesn’t mean they’re going to let themselves get their asses handed to them either though...
My claim is I could logically see Mera doing well against a standard Superman if the Superman that fought her there is what we’d consider a standard Superman. The Superman that holds back and doesn’t want to harm anyone. Mera character wise isn’t like that and my claim is if we treat them off the portrayal of that fight I could definitely see her winning.
You posted the scans, yes. You did ignore the context though(and even included a cropped scan), and you're unwilling to acknowledge that Superman/Wonder Woman literally didn't even try fighting her. Her being at full strength doesn't really change anything, as they weren't actually fighting back.
Cool. Standard Superman holds back, but he's not going to just....not fight at all like in a forum match. There was story context that made him do that.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I said we can throw out the fight taking place in seconds. In neither here nor there tbh.You posted the scans, yes. You did ignore the context though(and even included a cropped scan), and you're unwilling to acknowledge that Superman/Wonder Woman literally didn't even try fighting her. Her being at full strength doesn't really change anything, as they weren't actually fighting back.
Cool. Standard Superman holds back, but he's not going to just....not fight at all like in a forum match. There was story context that made him do that.
What scan did I post that was cropped out lol? What missing context did said cropped scan have that was important in better portraying Superman in that instance?
Her being at full strength kind of does matter given her not being in full strength she was able to trap Superman/Wonder Woman in her hydrokinesis. They broke out while Mera was focusing on other characters who knows maybe at full strength she would of held both of them. Added on top of other distractions. Speculation on my part. But giving you a reason why throwing out stuff like Mera not being at full strength when by Batman’s words she took down the league.
The rest of your post is just a continuation on speculation.
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
What scan did I post that was cropped out lol? What missing context did said cropped scan have that was important in better portraying Superman in that instance?Her being at full strength kind of does matter given her not being in full strength she was able to trap Superman/Wonder Woman in her hydrokinesis. They broke out while Mera was focusing on other characters who knows maybe at full strength she would of held both of them. Added on top of other distractions. Speculation on my part. But giving you a reason why throwing out stuff like Mera not being at full strength when by Batman’s words she took down the league.
The rest of your post is just a continuation on speculation.
If they aren't fighting back to begin with, it wouldn't matter if she's at full strength or not. There would still be no actual fight to gauge. Why is that so disagreeable to you?
What part was speculation exactly? That Superman would actually fight back in a forum match? 😑
Originally posted by StyleTime
Grace must have a weird character in their name, because I can only auto-quote, which sucks.
It's not his name that is the problem.
It's that fancy, non-standard iPhone apostrophe that's not considered a standard character by kmc standards (lol, repeated myself so many times).
Since the 2015 server move, KMC hates it. Raz promised to fix it and he never did.
