I'm going to go with Steve because I genuinely don't know where the place Walker in terms of skill level at this point (it was terrible during the finale). TFATWS is so up and down in that regard that, as someone said in another thread, it's like they took a page out of the Russo Bro's playbook. One moment Walker can easily handle multiple Flag Smashers, next time he struggles to fend off the same amount. One moment he can fight both Bucky and Sam at the same time, and then he gets floored by Karli solo. And I don't buy that it was just not having the vibranium shield. He was still muscling them around when he actually got his hands on them, but he was struggling to even tag them with a lot of his hits, which makes him look really bad in the skill department. Steve showed a fairly consistent level of high skill throughout the films and has multiple instances of using said skill to actually punch above his weight class.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerYea, that's why I think he's on par with Steve/Bucky physically, but not hth skill.
I'm going to go with Steve because I genuinely don't know where the place Walker in terms of skill level at this point (it was terrible during the finale). TFATWS is so up and down in that regard that, as someone said in another thread, it's like they took a page out of the Russo Bro's playbook. One moment Walker can easily handle multiple Flag Smashers, next time he struggles to fend off the same amount. One moment he can fight both Bucky and Sam at the same time, and then he gets floored by Karli solo. And I don't buy that it was just not having the vibranium shield. He was still muscling them around when he actually got his hands on them, but he was struggling to even tag them with a lot of his hits, which makes him look really bad in the skill department. Steve showed a fairly consistent level of high skill throughout the films and has multiple instances of using said skill to actually punch above his weight class.
Which makes sense considering Steve is Steve and Bucky was Hydra's living weapon.
I think you're discounting how much of a game changer the shield is though. I think they tried to show that by how he tried to use it like the original in the second fight, but they treated it like a toy. Had he used Cap's shield things would have been different.
Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, that's why I think he's on par with Steve/Bucky physically, but not hth skill.Which makes sense considering Steve is Steve and Bucky was Hydra's living weapon.
I think you're discounting how much of a game changer the shield is though. I think they tried to show that by how he tried to use it like the original in the second fight, but they treated it like a toy. Had he used Cap's shield things would have been different.
The problem I have with that is it wasn't just use of the shield. In the previous fights, he was consistently landing hits on his opponents, whether he was using the shield or his limbs. In the finale, it seemed like he was just swinging wildly most of the time and barely connecting 50% of his attacks. The Flag Smashers themselves also just seemed to get better or worse depending on what the plot required at any given moment throughout the show. And Sam and Bucky also have some fluctuating skill/power showings. It was just really inconsistent writing as a whole and quite disappointing in that regard.
The show had some really good emotional moments in terms of character development and such, but the action was a big miss for me. Also doesn't help that some of the fights have very choppy editing. I will say that I did like the helicopter sequence with Sam during the finale though.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerYea, I think they all got better or worse depending on plot. Walker really had no business taking on Falcon and Bucky as well as he did based on all of their other feats.
The problem I have with that is it wasn't just use of the shield. In the previous fights, he was consistently landing hits on his opponents, whether he was using the shield or his limbs. In the finale, it seemed like he was just swinging wildly most of the time and barely connecting 50% of his attacks. The Flag Smashers themselves also just seemed to get better or worse depending on what the plot required at any given moment throughout the show. And Sam and Bucky also have some fluctuating skill/power showings. It was just really inconsistent writing as a whole and quite disappointing in that regard.The show had some really good emotional moments in terms of character development and such, but the action was a big miss for me. Also doesn't help that some of the fights have very choppy editing. I will say that I did like the helicopter sequence with Sam during the finale though.
Look at his original fight with the Flag Smashers; every attack was either based around the shield or facilitated by it when facing multiple opponents. If he didn't have it he would have gotten taken out faster than he already did.
Even during the finale alone the scaling and levels were all over the place. One moment, Walker is struggling with the fodder Flag Smashers, the next moment a push kick to the abdomen from Karli doesn't even phase him:
Seriously, whoever wrote the fights in this show needs to be slapped beside the head and have some of their pay docked.
Walker takes scenario one. He was shown to be stronger than Winter Soldier, and he was able to fight evenly with both WS and Falcon (w/ vibranium shield). He's strong enough to just take Caps shield away from him like he did Bucky. If Cap throws it, he's definitely losing it (no different than when he lost it fighting Bucky). Walker was a force with that shield.
In scenario 2, I'm still leaning towards Walker. He showed himself to be pretty skilled in the 1v2 vs Falcon/WS and the 1v2 vs the Flash Smashers. He's also definitely stronger than Steve is by a solid margin so Steve is gonna feel those hits. Rogers might have an edge in skill though (IMO he was always a bit better than WS here; then again, so was Walker when they fought).
All this is consistent with comic Walker too, so that's probably what they were trying to translate. He's beyond comic Cap too. Anyone who stomps WS in a fight takes Cap.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
You'll have to aware me on where I'm going wrong on the serum timeline then. Walker throwing the shield into concrete before fighting the Flag Smashers was the first indication that he had actually injected the serum, and that was right before his big fight with the flag smashers. That was the first fight he had post serum, and the first episode he had it in his system to the best of my memory. He was even talking to Lamar the same episode about whether or not he should take the serum since he was conflicted about the results, and Lamar indirectly told him to do it. Then he was twitching as he showed up to the final encounter, showing the serum was in the middle of exerting its effects.Walker clearly had the Smasher he was fighting 1v1 overwhelmed before he started taking doubles (the guy he who's pole he bent in half in the stairwell). He didn't take him out but it was clear he wasn't worried about the dude since he was pretty casual during the encounter and then he let the guy run off only to pursue him at a leisurely pace just like when Falcon showed up in the beginning. He straight up stomped that guy 1v1, and he did it casually so it seems strange to act like he couldn't have ended the dude without breaking a sweat.
You also say "fend off" as if Walker was just barely managing. He was skilled and put out plenty of punishment in that last fight. He started off the big fight hitting two separate targets with the shield (helping Falcon with his by propelling the guy into Falcons attack), before starting his 1v2. Then he floored one before disarming the other and then going at it with both in an extended melee. Meanwhile, WS took out one in a fair fight and then blindsided another that was sprinting at Falcon. Falcon didn't take out anyone. Then Walker proceeded to chase down that Flag Smasher and beat him fair 1v1 before killing him. The dude was completely overwhelmed and couldn't even fend Walker off, though he definitely tried.
Walker stomped two targets in 1v1s and was the only one to be able to fight 2 at a time evenly. That's two similarly enhanced individuals. No matter which way you slice it, that's more impressive than Bucky beating a few in 1v1 (which Walker had no trouble doing either; in fact, Walker took out his singles more casually than Bucky did). Nothing in this fight suggested Walker was somehow lesser than WS. It definitely showed him to be above Falcon.
Then, not 10 minutes after this same encounter, Walker proceeded to fight both WS and Falcon at the same time. He had them both overwhelmed and out-skilled the majority of the fight. He just kept flooring them, and they didn't get a hit on him until Falcon sweeped him with the wings (which Walker rolled out of; you could barely call that a hit but I'm being generous here) late into the fight. There was even an instance where Walker had Bucky pinned against a surface with a shield, and he wasn't even struggling all that much while Bucky was clearly strained to the max and overpowered (this is after he tossed the shield so hard, Bucky got carried with it vs him straight up stopping the shield with one hand when Cap threw it in WS). Then he hammer tossed Bucky and straight up KOed him. From there, they got a few hits in, but only by blindsiding him and taking advantage when he was about to kill the other.
And you know what? Now that I've rewatched it, that last fight wasn't an much of an outlier for Walker either (mostly). Walker initially got overwhelmed by 4 Flag Smashers before being saved by Bucky. Then Bucky went over the edge followed by another Flag Smasher for yet another 1v1. At this point we got another 1v2 with Walker and two Flash Smashers. This time, he proceeded to straight up stomp and KO both of them singlehandedly and almost instantly with the $hitty shield. Then he spotted Karli and started pursuing her. He had her completely overwhelmed before she floored him with that Rey Mysterio wire move (I'd say this is the only real outlier for him, but they had to move the plot along).
Walker was consistently shown to be beyond Winter Soldier. He was about even fighting both WS and Falcon at the same time. Neither of them are on par with him.
Yeah, I rewatched that sequence. After it became a two-on-one Walker floored both of them pretty quickly with his garage shield before pursuing Karli, who was mostly struggling and on the back foot until she landed that kick. He was also able to keep one at bay with one arm while knocking out the other.
https://i.imgur.com/bm4dR8G.mp4
Still not a good showing for Walker to get dropped like that from a single hit though and also pretty stupid considering how many hits he took in the previous fights without going down. Which still proves my point though that the fights were inconsistent and that the writers just did whatever would fit with the plot at any given moment.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerYeah, I can agree with that scene not making sense. I've tried to reason it, but I'm struggling on that one. Karli's kick was just straight up inconsistency in both damage soak (you about covered it) and skill (if he can melee and defend against WS and Bucky at the same time, he should have been able to block that no sweat). That was his only real bad showing post-serum.
Yeah, I rewatched that sequence. After it became a two-on-one Walker floored both of them pretty quickly with his garage shield before pursuing Karli, who was mostly struggling and on the back foot until she landed that kick. He was also able to keep one at bay with one arm while knocking out the other.https://i.imgur.com/bm4dR8G.mp4
Still not a good showing for Walker to get dropped like that from a single hit though and also pretty stupid considering how many hits he took in the previous fights without going down. Which still proves my point though that the fights were inconsistent and that the writers just did whatever would fit with the plot at any given moment.
Cap wins both for now. Cap still has feats of punching above his weightclass and doing well. Cap has fought opponents like Ultron, Ironman and Loki. Even if Walker is somehow stronger than Cap, that doesn’t mean he wins. And right now I haven't seen enough skill from him to indicate he can take out Steve.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Yeah, I can agree with that scene not making sense. I've tried to reason it, but I'm struggling on that one. Karli's kick was just straight up inconsistency in both damage soak (you about covered it) and skill (if he can melee and defend against WS and Bucky at the same time, he should have been able to block that no sweat). That was his only real bad showing post-serum.
Yeah, it's hard to justify how that happened after he mowed through the other two still present (after Bucky and the other one went over the edge) in under 10 seconds. He knees the one, who briefly goes down, blocks a hit from the other and chokes them, then wacks both with his glorified fancy dustbin lid and that lays them both out heavily enough that he can freely engage Karli, who then can't even budge him with a kick to the stomach. But then she can just KO him like that shortly after? It's stupid.
Originally posted by FrothByteYou know what? That's a better argument. I was using WS as a metric for both since they both fought him, but you're right in that Cap has fought (though not really beat) bigger opponents than Bucky. I haven't seen enough from Walker to say he could flip around Ultron on a moving vehicle.
Cap wins both for now. Cap still has feats of punching above his weightclass and doing well. Cap has fought opponents like Ultron, Ironman and Loki. Even if Walker is somehow stronger than Cap, that doesn’t mean he wins. And right now I haven't seen enough skill from him to indicate he can take out Steve.
I'll make my argument that he'd beat CA:TWS Cap and leave it there.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerThere was a lot in that show that was undercooked. I'm disappointed overall. Looks like WandaVision or Daredevil keep the crown for best MCU shows for now.
Yeah, it's hard to justify how that happened after he mowed through the other two still present (after Bucky and the other one went over the edge) in under 10 seconds. He knees the one, who briefly goes down, blocks a hit from the other and chokes them, then wacks both with his glorified fancy dustbin lid and that lays them both out heavily enough that he can freely engage Karli, who then can't even budge him with a kick to the stomach. But then she can just KO him like that shortly after? It's stupid.
If we're going with the idea that Bucky does not fight in the same way as The Winter Soldier, then Walker didn't exactly fight the same guy that Steve Rogers fought.
I'm having trouble imagining Walker winning against the Winter Soldier that Steve fought in a knife fight on the highway. For that matter, I can't imagine Walker winning against Spiderman either or matching up against BP.
Originally posted by FrothByteYou know, I tried to make that exact argument a few days ago based off him sometimes forgetting to use his left metal arm (WS used it pretty liberally, I think). I didn't convince anybody lol. I'm also not completely sure of it myself since he claims to remember all his activity. IMO it has some validity though.
If we're going with the idea that Bucky does not fight in the same way as The Winter Soldier, then Walker didn't exactly fight the same guy that Steve Rogers fought.I'm having trouble imagining Walker winning against the Winter Soldier that Steve fought in a knife fight on the highway. For that matter, I can't imagine Walker winning against Spiderman either or matching up against BP.
Originally posted by FrothByteBucky's fight against Iron Man was better than anything Walker showed too.
If we're going with the idea that Bucky does not fight in the same way as The Winter Soldier, then Walker didn't exactly fight the same guy that Steve Rogers fought.I'm having trouble imagining Walker winning against the Winter Soldier that Steve fought in a knife fight on the highway. For that matter, I can't imagine Walker winning against Spiderman either or matching up against BP.
He was taking punches from an enraged Iron Man like they were nothing, he even overpowered him at one point.
Originally posted by Mindset
Bucky's fight against Iron Man was better than anything Walker showed too.He was taking punches from an enraged Iron Man like they were nothing, he even overpowered him at one point.
Bucky being able to overpower Iron Man is dumb as shit as earlier in that very same fight Tony palmed a hit from his robo arm as easily as Spider-Man did.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
There was a lot in that show that was undercooked. I'm disappointed overall. Looks like WandaVision or Daredevil keep the crown for best MCU shows for now.
Yeah, as a whole, WandaVision >>> TFATWS. My only real gripes with that show is the cameo teases that turned out to be nothing and that the final showdown between Agatha and Wanda could have been more creative. TFATWS had a couple of really good character moments, especially for Sam, but there're just too many inconsistencies and wasted opportunities throughout the show.
Daredevil S1 & S3 still shits on both IMO. And Daredevil S2 is also better than TFATWS.