KMC is a Left Wing echo chamber.

Started by ilikecomics19 pages

Originally posted by Scribble
The arbitrary economic system always results in State-like oppression, based on whims of the 'market', which is easily manipulated. No market is free. It will always become a feudal system.

Resource availability indicates to utilise a communist-based approach to basic needs. Perhaps when all basic needs (food, water, shelter) are provided, it may be possible. Who knows (I don't).

Tech allows us to do many things, but imo markets always tend towards Statist systems.
I don't believe in Good and Evil. Only functional and nonfunctional. And even a shadow market system like eBay will become a State if isolated economically. With time, it will become nonfunctional. Nothing is free from rust.

You think money is a state constructed phenomena and not naturally occurring ? That's an interesting take.

Do you believe in people trading or not ?

The only way to deal with resource scarcity is a price system built on private property, mutual consent, and pricing.

Otherwise what's known as the tragedy of the commons takes place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Markets are the opposite of statism. Trade = voluntary, statism = territorial monopoly of violence. Diametrically opposite.

If youre a consequentialist then why not look at how when free markets were introduced in the 17th century the overall prosperity of humanity increased.

We also have the USSR vs. america (america IS NOT a free market, but it's freer than the USSR) or the twin experiment of north and south Korea.
It's the same population genetically and yet people from nk are three inches shorter. Then compare gdp per capita of the two.
Nk = 1300
SK = 31,000

Then ask why the big difference. To me the answer is obvious, south Korea has a freer market.

Do you think sk is more evil than nk because people in sk trade more amongst themselves ?

That would be an odd view as well.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
You think money is a state constructed phenomena and not naturally occurring ? That's an interesting take.

Do you believe in people trading or not ?

The only way to deal with resource scarcity is a price system built on private property, mutual consent, and pricing.

Otherwise what's known as the tragedy of the commons takes place
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Markets are the opposite of statism. Trade = voluntary, statism = territorial monopoly of violence. Diametrically opposite.

If youre a consequentialist then why not look at how when free markets were introduced in the 17th century the overall prosperity of humanity increased.

We also have the USSR vs. america (america IS NOT a free market, but it's freer than the USSR) or the twin experiment of north and south Korea.
It's the same population genetically and yet people from nk are three inches shorter. Then compare gdp per capita of the two.
Nk = 1300
SK = 31,000

Then ask why the big difference. To me the answer is obvious, south Korea has a freer market.

Do you think sk is more evil than nk because people in sk trade more amongst themselves ?

That would be an odd view as well.

Oh it's entirely naturally occurring. Everything is. Murder is naturally occurring. Doesn't mean I think it's good (i.e., functional).

People trading is never going away, but to make it ethical, basic needs must be provided for somehow. Only then do we avoid wage slavery and slavery in general.

We don't have resource scarcity in modern society. Scarcity is a luxury survival tax levied by the power-class.

Markets ARE a form of state, absolutely, if basic needs are not provided for. All anarchism is left-anarchism.

And as I already said, I don't deal in Good and Evil. Only functional and nonfunctional. To me, neither SK nor NK nor any state is truly functional. It is doomed to collapse and thus catastrophe, eventually.

The only fix is revolution. Literal heads on stakes time.

Originally posted by cdtm
The only fix is revolution. Literal heads on stakes time.
Well, exactly. That's how it goes. I'm not into violence so I won't partake. But we either full-on revolt with heads on ****ing stakes, or the planet kills us. It's a pretty basic path by now.

Well, maybe I will partake, but as an anarchist, I'll be shot in the head eventually.

And as a trans person, if the revolt is reactionary, I'll probably be raped, murdered and disposed of via sewer. But such is the chaos of life. We degenerates get the flaming pike one way or the other.

_______________
btw, as I am a UK user, I must sign off for sleepy-byes, as commanded by Daddy Boris. Goodnight

We disagree on quite a bit. I don't think I'll change your mind tonight.

From my pov you've already made the biggest jump in thinking in terms of anarchism, which is the most important thing.

If this were a religious debate and we were both atheists, but you believe in ghosts and I didnt that distinction wouldn't bother me as bad as the the distinction between atheism and theism.

Are you going to get Michael malice's new book about anarchy ?
https://www.amazon.com/Anarchist-Handbook-Michael-Malice/dp/B095DVF8FJ

Originally posted by ilikecomics
All that is long passed, unless we have the temerity to compare such ancient skullduggery with reparations, extraterritoriality, charges for maintaining armies of occupation, absconding with property, grabbing of natural resources, control of arteries of trade and other modern techniques of conquest. It may be argued that even if taxation had an unsavory beginning it could have straightened itself out and become a decent and useful citizen. So, we must apply ourselves to the theory and practices of taxation to prove that it is in fact the kind of thing above described.

First, as to method of collection, taxation falls into two categories, direct and indirect. Indirect taxes are so called because they reach the state by way of private collectors, while direct taxes arrive without bypass. The former levies are attached to goods and services before they reach the consumer, while the latter are in the main demands upon accumulations of wealth.

It will be seen that indirect taxation is a permission-to-live price. You cannot find in the marketplace a single satisfaction to which a number of these taxes are not attached, hidden in the price, and you are under compulsion either to pay them or go without; since going without amounts to depriving yourself of the meaning of life, or even of life itself, you pay.

The inevitability of this charge on existence is expressed in the popular association of death and taxes. And it is this very characteristic that commends indirect taxation to the state, so that when you examine the prices of things you live by, you are astounded by the disproportion between the cost of production and the charge for permission to buy. Somebody has put the number of taxes carried by a loaf of bread at over one hundred; obviously, some are not ascertainable, for it would be impossible to allocate to each loaf its share of taxes on the broom used in the bakery, on the axle-grease used on the delivery wagon.

Whiskey is perhaps the most notorious example of the way products have been transmuted from satisfactions into tax gatherers. The manufacturing cost of a gallon of whiskey, for which the consumer pays around twenty dollars, is less than a half-dollar; the spread is partly accounted for in the costs of distribution, but most of the money which passes over the counter goes to maintain city, county, state and national officials.

The hue and cry over the cost of living would make more sense if it were directed at taxation, the largest single item in the cost. It should be noted too that though the cost-of-living problem affects mainly the poor, yet it is on this segment of society that the incidence of indirect taxation falls most heavily. This is necessarily so; since those in the lower earning brackets constitute the major portion of society they must account for the greatest share of consumption, and therefore for the greatest share of taxation. The state recognizes this fact in levying on goods of widest use. A tax on salt, no matter how small comparatively, yields much more than a tax on diamonds, and is of greater significance socially and economically.

It is not the size of the yield, nor the certainty of collection, which gives indirect taxation preeminence in the state's scheme of appropriation. Its most commendable quality is that of being surreptitious. It is taking, so to speak, while the victim is not looking. Those who strain themselves to give taxation a moral character are under obligation to explain the state's preoccupation with hiding taxes in the price of goods. Is there a confession of guilt in that? In recent years, in its search for additional revenue, the state has been tinkering with a sales tax, an outright and unequivocal permission-to-live price; wiser solons have opposed this measure on the ground of political expediency. Why? If the state serves a good purpose the producers will hardly object to paying its keep.

Follow an importation of raw silk, from importer to cleaner, to spinner, to weaver, to finisher, to manufacturer, to wholesaler, to retailer, each one adding his mark-up to the price paid his predecessor, and you will see that in the price milady pays for her gown there is much more than the tariff schedule demands. This fact alone helps to make merchants and manufacturers indifferent to the evils of protection.Merely as a matter of method, not with deliberate intent, indirect taxation yields a profit of proportions to private collectors, and for this reason opposition to the levies could hardly be expected from that corner. When the tax is paid in advance of the sale it becomes an element of cost which must be added to all other costs in computing price. As the expected profit is a percentage of the total outlay, it will be seen that the tax itself becomes a source of gain. Where the merchandise must pass through the hands of several processors and distributors, the profits pyramided on the tax can run up to as much as, if not more than, the amount collected by the state. The consumer pays the tax plus the compounded profits. Particularly notorious in this regard are customs duties.

Tacit support for indirect taxation arises from another byproduct. Where a considerable outlay in taxes is a prerequisite for engaging in a business, large accumulations of capital have a distinct competitive advantage, and these capitalists could hardly be expected to advocate a lowering of the taxes. Any farmer can make whiskey, and many of them do; but the necessary investment in revenue stamps and various license fees makes the opening of a distillery and the organizing of distributive agencies a business only for large capital.

Taxation has forced the individually owned and congenial grog shop to give way to the palatial bar under mortgage to the brewery or distillery. Likewise, the manufacture of cigarettes is concentrated in the hands of a few giant corporations by the help of our tax system; nearly three-quarters of the retail price of a package of cigarettes represents an outlay in taxes. It would be strange indeed if these interests were to voice opposition to such indirect taxes (which they never do) and the uninformed, inarticulate and unorganized consumer is forced to pay the higher price resulting from limited competition.

Direct taxes differ from indirect taxes not only in the manner of collection but also in the more important fact that they cannot be passed on; those who pay them cannot demand reimbursement from others. In the main, the incidence of direct taxation falls on incomes and accumulations rather than on goods in the course of exchange. You are taxed on what you have, not on something you buy; on the proceeds of enterprise or the returns from services already rendered, not on anticipated revenue. Hence there is no way of shifting the burden. The payer has no recourse.

The clear-cut direct taxes are those levied on incomes, inheritances, gifts, land values. It will be seen that such appropriations lend themselves to soak-the-rich propaganda, and find support in the envy of the incompetent, the bitterness of poverty, the sense of injustice which our monopoly economy engenders. Direct taxation has been advocated since colonial times (along with universal suffrage), as the necessary implementation of democracy, as the essential instrument of "leveling."

The opposition of the rich to direct taxation added virulence to the reformers who plugged for it. In normal times the state is unable to overcome this well-knit, articulate, and resourceful opposition. But, when war or the need of ameliorating mass poverty strains the purse of the state to the limit, and further indirect impositions are impossible or threaten social unrest, the opposition must give way. The state never relinquishes entirely the prerogatives it acquires during an "emergency," and so, after a series of wars and depressions, direct taxation became a fixture of our fiscal policy, and those upon whom it falls must content themselves to whittling down the levies or trying to transfer them from shoulder to shoulder.

this is too long; didn’t read.

The long posts are all one post. Kmc has a 10 k character limit and that one in it's entirety is around 41k.

It's a piece of writing from Frank chodorov. Way to be not intellectually curious.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
The long posts are all one post. Kmc has a 10 k character limit and that one in it's entirety is around 41k.

It's a piece of writing from Frank chodorov. Way to be not intellectually curious.

If you can't summarise your points then that says a lot as well.

We read according to our own intellectual curiousness, not what you dictate to us is intelligent reading.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
The long posts are all one post. Kmc has a 10 k character limit and that one in it's entirety is around 41k.

It's a piece of writing from Frank chodorov. Way to be not intellectually curious.

I'm sure everyone is super impressed. do you feel smart tho?

Originally posted by Klaw
Hard to give a precise definition of what makes a Leftist.

I can tell by talking to someone and seeing where they stand.

If you're complaining about only Leftists being allowed here, then you should have some idea/standard of what that entails.

I think everyone agrees Bernie and AOC are leftists. But I feel like you're including anyone anti-Trump or anti-Republican in that label.

Curiousness. You mean, curiosity. 😛

Originally posted by Blakemore
Curiousness. You mean, curiosity. 😛
I think it's an Americanism like burglarized for burgled or robbed Blake

Damn murkans

Originally posted by Blakemore
Damn murkans
burglarized is a very funny word though. I love the Americans ability to create verbs by adding ize

and you sound like you're having a neurological event when you say "schedule", in that silly way that you say it

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
and you sound like you're having a neurological event when you say "schedule", in that silly way that you say it
😂 schedulized it must be a real word!

Did ilikecomics have a breakdown or something?

I just see walls of text after text.

Some say skejule, others say she Julie…,

I say skejule.

Shejule, not she Julie. 😬