Janemba's influence on reality was due to his influence on hell. So it's not like he was creating a massive fireball or causing vacuum decay.
The implication in the manga was that Super Buu significantly more powerful than Goku. But Goku could hold his own against Janmeba.
Buu-han > Buu-tenks > Buu-collo > Super Buu > Janemba > Fat Buu > Kid Buu ≥ Evil Buu > Good Buu > Fat Janemba
Originally posted by Astner
Janemba's influence on reality was due to his influence on hell. So it's not like he was creating a massive fireball or causing vacuum decay.The implication in the manga was that Super Buu significantly more powerful than Goku. But Goku could hold his own against Janmeba.
Buu-han > Buu-tenks > Buu-collo > Super Buu > Janemba > Fat Buu > Kid Buu ≥ Evil Buu > Good Buu > Fat Janemba
That was never mentioned and Goku said that Janemba had enough power in him to destroy the Universe.
Janemba was significantly more powerful than Goku. Goku felt that he needed to merge to beat him. Why mention this?
Based off power mentioned (Universal), the effects Janemba was having (warping reality) and Janemba also being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, he shouldn't lose here.
Originally posted by Astner👆
Janemba's influence on reality was due to his influence on hell. So it's not like he was creating a massive fireball or causing vacuum decay.The implication in the manga was that Super Buu significantly more powerful than Goku. But Goku could hold his own against Janmeba.
Buu-han > Buu-tenks > Buu-collo > Super Buu > Janemba > Fat Buu > Kid Buu ≥ Evil Buu > Good Buu > Fat Janemba
Originally posted by carver9Janemba was passively beginning to warp reality, sure.
Scale of power, Janemba poops on Super Buu. His presence alone was warping reality and Goku outright said Janemba could destroy the entire Universe and this was before his transformation when he became more powerful.
Boohan's scream was actively starting to break down dimensional walls, and would have soon destroyed the universe if Vegito hadn't stopped him.
Feats don't really matter for battles between Dragon Ball characters because it's internally consistent. Cell never destroyed the planet, but we still know he's stronger than Frieza who did.
The only case you could reasonable make for Super Buu being weaker than Janemba is that Goku was dead, and therefore could sustain his Super Saiyan 3 transformation.
The issue with this argument is he didn't know this when fighting Kid Buu. He tried to gather chi as Super Saiyan 3, but wasn't able to hold on to it. So he shouldn't have known this when he said that they didn't have a chance against Super Buu.
So what we're left with is:
[list=1][*]Super Buu >> Super Saiyan 3 Goku,
[*]Janemba > Super Saiyan 3 Goku,
[*]Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Fat Buu,
[*]Super Saiyan 3 Goku >> Kid Buu.[/list]
Chapter 509 "You know, I actually could've beaten the fat Boo with Super Saiyan 3 when I met him...but I wanted the new generation to make sure they could take care of themselves..." - Goku
Chapter 510 "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!" - Vegeta
Feats of scale aren't something I typically argue in DB threads for that very reason: it is seldom an accurate measuring stick. But since carver implied that Janemba wins cuz "scale of power", I just wanted to remind him that Boohan canonically(it was referenced in the Daizenshuu) preformed an =/> feat. Point being: even the scale of Janemba's passive influence can't give him an auto-win against Boohan.
Anyway, Goku didn't discover that he was unable to reach full power SS3 in a mortal body until his fight with Pure Boo... So previously in the arc, when Goku stated that Super Boo was [far] stronger than himself, he was logically factoring in his FP!SS3.
My scaling basically mirrors yours:
Boohan > Bootenks > Mystic Gohan > Booccolo > Super Boo ~ SS3 Gotenks ~/> Janemba > FP!SS3 Goku > Pure Boo > Fat Boo ~/> Fat Janemba.
Goku claimed that Fat Janenba is the strongest ki he has ever felt, and he factors in Buu to that assertion since he mentions him when he transforms into SSJ3 against Fat Janenba. Since Gotenks can use his ghost attack in the movie then Goku can also be referring to Super Buu. Making Fat Janenba at least Ultimate Gohan level and Super Janenba Buuhan level or higher.
^ Character statements are usually pretty reliable in DB, but in this case there are a few glaring contradictions that we can't just ignore...
Regardless of Goku's statement, he proceeded to throttle Fat Janemba without much difficulty once he went SS3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbkNLpzdsfY&t=1m40s
ie. FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba
Additionally, FP!SS3 Goku was able to do pretty well(all things considered) against final form Janemba:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg49-Z5a8-g
Janemba was obviously still superior, but the fact that Goku could at least put up a fight tells us that the gap between them wasn't overly vast.
Flip side, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was [far] stronger than himself... To the point where Goku(the dipshit who is typically willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of the circumstances) felt that it would be suicide to try and fight Super Boo, and didn't even attempt to engage him:
https://ibb.co/5KC7NGN
*As I mentioned above, Goku would have logically been factoring in his full power SS3 when he made that assessment/statement, as he was not yet aware that his mortal body was incapable of handling the full power of SS3. Therefore we can conclude that Super Boo > FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba.
This is, again, why I have final form Janemba around Super Boo's level.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Character statements are usually pretty reliable in DB, but in this case there are a few glaring contradictions that we can't just ignore...Regardless of Goku's statement, he proceeded to throttle Fat Janemba without much difficulty once he went SS3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbkNLpzdsfY&t=1m40s
ie. FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat JanembaAdditionally, FP!SS3 Goku was able to do pretty well(all things considered) against final form Janemba:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg49-Z5a8-g
Janemba was obviously still superior, but the fact that Goku could at least put up a fight tells us that the gap between them wasn't overly vast.Flip side, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was [far] stronger than himself... To the point where Goku(the dipshit who is typically willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of the circumstances) felt that it would be suicide to try and fight Super Boo, and didn't even attempt to engage him:
https://ibb.co/5KC7NGN
*As I mentioned above, Goku would have logically been factoring in his full power SS3 when he made that assessment/statement, as he was not yet aware that his mortal body was incapable of handling the full power of SS3. Therefore we can conclude that Super Boo > FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba.This is, again, why I have final form Janemba around Super Boo's level.
I just chalk that up to Movie Goku being stronger than Canon Goku. He did outperform both Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks against Hirudegarn in the next film, despite the latter two being stronger than him and Super Buu in canon.
Originally posted by MarikinaI mean, he was stronger in a way.
I just chalk that up to Movie Goku being stronger than Canon Goku.
Movie #12 Goku was still in his dead/spirit body, and was therefore capable of tapping into the full power of SS3. Conversely, canon Goku, in his living body, was not capable of doing so -- he never reached FP!SS3 in the manga, because his mortal body couldn't handle it.
However, Goku only learned that he was not able to fully power up as SS3 during the final battle with Pure Boo. That's why the statement he made about his power being [far] inferior to that of Super Boo is important: at that point in the story, Goku would have logically been factoring in FP!SS3... And still didn't think he'd have a chance.
Originally posted by MarikinaMovie levels/scaling are often quite broken and borderline unreliable. For example, Movie #13 Goku outpreformed both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan... In his baseline SS1 state.
He did outperform both Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks against Hirudegarn in the next film, despite the latter two being stronger than him and Super Buu in canon.
So it seems more likely that the power of Gotenks and Gohan were simply shit on/forgotten in that movie, for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to shine. Unless you're really of the opinion that SS1 Goku > SS3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, he was stronger in a way.Movie #12 Goku was still in his dead/spirit body, and was therefore capable of tapping into the full power of SS3. Conversely, canon Goku, in his living body, was not capable of doing so -- he never reached FP!SS3 in the manga, because his mortal body couldn't handle it.
However, Goku only learned that he was not able to fully power up as SS3 during the final battle with Pure Boo. That's why the statement he made about his power being [far] inferior to that of Super Boo is important: at that point in the story, Goku would have logically been factoring in FP!SS3... And still didn't think he'd have a chance.
Goku also told Vegeta in the movie that the gap between them grew bigger since the last time they met because he had a body in the afterlife and was training.
Movie levels/scaling are often quite broken and borderline unreliable. For example, Movie #13 Goku outpreformed both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan... In his baseline [b]SS1 state.So it seems more likely that the power of Gotenks and Gohan were simply shit on/forgotten in that movie, for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to shine. Unless you're really of the opinion that SS1 Goku > SS3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan. /shrug [/B]
Goku was SSJ2 in movie 12, and he lost to the transformed Hirudegarn just like his kids.
Originally posted by carver9
Goku discovered a weakness in Hirudegarn, that's how he defeated him and lasted.
SSJ3 Goku was literally no-selling punches from Hirudegarn.
Originally posted by MarikinaNot exactly sure what angle you're taking here, but doesn't that hold true in manga canon as well?
Goku also told Vegeta in the movie that the gap between them grew bigger since the last time they met because he had a body in the afterlife and was training.
Goku rigorously trained in the afterlife, and increased his overall power to a point where Vegeta couldn't match any of his forms without the Majin amp.
Originally posted by MarikinaYou're right, it was SS2... But the point still stands.
Goku was SSJ2 in movie 12, and he lost to the transformed Hirudegarn just like his kids.
Transformed Hirudegarn one-shot KO'd both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan. Flip side, SS2 Goku soaked multiple strikes from the same Hirudegarn before he was briefly KO'd. Don't think I'm willing to agree that SS2 Goku is actually on par with(much less superior to) Gotenks/Gohan... I think it's more likely that the duo's actual "manga levels" were just outright ignored in that Movie so Goku could take the spotlight again(like he did in almost every DB Movie.)
Either that or:
SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku ~/> Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Gotenks.
So do we think Movie-verse Goku was just THAT ridiculously powerful, or do we think the others were just THAT ridiculously nerfed..?
