Janemba vs Buuhan · Anime 'Versus' Forum

Marikina Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Not exactly sure what angle you're taking here, but doesn't that hold true in manga canon as well?
Goku rigorously trained in the afterlife, and increased his overall power to a point where Vegeta couldn't match any of his forms without the Majin amp.

Goku was referring to when both of them ended up in the afterlife after their fight. Goku got a body and continued his training, widening their gap.

You're right, it was SS2... But the point still stands.
Transformed Hirudegarn one-shot KO'd both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan. Flip side, SS2 Goku soaked multiple strikes from the same Hirudegarn before he was briefly KO'd. Don't think I'm willing to agree that SS2 Goku is actually on par with(much less superior to) Gotenks/Gohan... I think it's more likely that the duo's actual "manga levels" were just outright ignored in that Movie so Goku could take the spotlight again(like he did in almost every DB Movie.)
Either that or:
SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku ~/> Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Gotenks.
So do we think Movie-verse Goku was just THAT ridiculously powerful, or do we think the others were just THAT ridiculously nerfed..?

As I pointed out above Goku in the movies underwent additional training after returning to the afterlife which could explain his power boost. And it's not like there's no precedent for Toei making Goku look stronger than Gohan in their material. Goku was stronger than Gohan in movie 8 and in movie 9 Goku decked Super Bojack while in base. And there's Goku looking strong in anime filler.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Marikina
Goku was referring to when both of them ended up in the afterlife after their fight. Goku got a body and continued his training, widening their gap.

Movies 10-13 are all set during the same general period as the Boo saga(with most of them literally taking place days apart.) So when did Goku have an opportunity to significantly level-up?

Originally posted by Marikina
As I pointed out above Goku in the movies underwent additional training after returning to the afterlife which could explain his power boost. And it's not like there's no precedent for Toei making Goku look stronger than Gohan in their material. Goku was stronger than Gohan in movie 8 and in movie 9 Goku decked Super Bojack while in base. And there's Goku looking strong in anime filler.

Oh, I'm well aware of the fact that Goku routinely looked better than his peers in the movies. Hence why I said this:

Originally posted by Galan007
I think it's more likely that the duo's actual "manga levels" were just outright ignored in that Movie so Goku could take the spotlight again(like he did in almost every DB Movie.)
Either that or:
SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku ~/> Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Gotenks.
So do we think Movie-verse Goku was just THAT ridiculously powerful, or do we think the others were just THAT ridiculously nerfed..?

Marikina Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Movies 10-13 are all set during the same general period as the Boo saga(with most of them literally taking place days apart.) So when did Goku have an opportunity to significantly level-up?
Oh, I'm well aware of the fact that Goku routinely looked better than his peers in the movies. Hence why I said this:

The movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline. Movie 12 after all did have an ongoing second afterlife tournament that wouldn't have jived with the anime.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

The Daizenshuu roughly outlines when the films are set... And Movies 10-13 all take place during the same period as the Boo saga.

Marikina Member

Originally posted by Galan007
The Daizenshuu roughly outlines when the films are set... And Movies 10-13 all take place during the same period as the Boo saga.

Like I said, loosely based. Movie 12's version of the Boo saga allowed for a second afterlife tournament which allowed Goku to train and get stronger.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

But again: the Daizenshuu gives us a timeline in which these movies take place, and it's all during the Boo saga...

M10: takes place just before the 25th WMAT.
-Videl has the hairstyle she adopted after Gohan taught her to fly.
-Goku is still dead.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the start of the 25th WMAT.

M11: takes place just before the initial showdown with Boo.
-#18 presses Mr. Satan to hand over the Tournament prize money.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the conclusion of the 25th WMAT, and the initial conflict with Fat Boo.

M12: takes place just before the climax of the battle with Super Boo.
-Goku is dead.
-Vegeta is dead.
-Boo is mentioned.
-Gotenks appears and uses his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack(meaning this is post-RoSaT Gotenks.)

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set at some point in the middle of the Boo saga -- likely around the battle with Super Boo/Bootenks/Boohan.

M13: takes place just after the conclusion of the Boo saga.
-Both Goku and Vegeta have living bodies.
-Peace has been restored to earth.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set right after Pure Boo's defeat/death.

So again, even though the movies are non-canon, they still adhere to the same general timeline of events as the canon/manga timeline... Meaning that all of the movies literally take place a few days apart(per the Daizenshuu.) So like I mentioned earlier: I'm not sure when Goku would've have the chance to significantly level-up between these films..?

NewGuy01 perpetual

Saying that Goku is stronger in the movies is no less valid than saying Gohan's strength was "ignored" in the movies, lol.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Imo, it makes more sense to assume that Gohan and Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to take the spotlight again, than it does to assume that Goku was SO much more powerful in the movie-verse that his SS2 form is on par with Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks... Because in the manga, the duo were far beyond even SS3 Goku.

Anyway, I said from the start that the movies(in particular) are a broken shitshow when it comes to "scaling", and y'all are welcome to assume that movie Goku IS that powerful without question. I'm just trying to rationalize things the best I can. /shrug

NewGuy01 perpetual

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, it makes more sense to assume that Gohan and Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to take the spotlight again, than it does to assume that Goku was SO much more powerful in the movie-verse that his SS2 form is on par with Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks...

Again, it's literally the same thing, just flipped around. It doesn't make sense for Goku to suddenly get stronger, and it doesn't make sense for everyone else to suddenly get weaker, either. I don't understand what's giving you this confidence that your side of the coin is any more reasonable of a rationalization.

Because in the manga, the duo were far beyond even SS3 Goku.

Well, that's your interpretation, at least. Maybe Toriyama would agree, maybe he wouldn't; I can't comment on that.

I am pretty confident, though, that the folks at Toei Animation would disagree, given that that Goku fared just fine against Buutenks in the anime. Clearly not everybody involved in the production process was operating under the same assumptions as you. If you'd still like to insist that your interpretation is more true to the manga, that's fine, but then it's necessary to acknowledge that Toei's productions don't have to comply 1-to-1 with Toriyama's vision.

Marikina Member

Originally posted by Galan007
But again: the Daizenshuu gives us a timeline in which these movies take place, and it's all during the Boo saga...
M10: takes place just before the 25th WMAT.
-Videl has the hairstyle she adopted after Gohan taught her to fly.
-Goku is still dead.
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the start of the 25th WMAT.
M11: takes place just before the initial showdown with Boo.
-#18 presses Mr. Satan to hand over the Tournament prize money.
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the conclusion of the 25th WMAT, and the initial conflict with Fat Boo.
M12: takes place just before the climax of the battle with Super Boo.
-Goku is dead.
-Vegeta is dead.
-Boo is mentioned.
-Gotenks appears and uses his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack(meaning this is post-RoSaT Gotenks.)
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set at some point in the middle of the Boo saga -- likely around the battle with Super Boo/Bootenks/Boohan.
M13: takes place just after the conclusion of the Boo saga.
-Both Goku and Vegeta have living bodies.
-Peace has been restored to earth.
*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set right after Pure Boo's defeat/death.
So again, even though the movies are non-canon, they still adhere to the same general timeline of events as the canon/manga timeline... Meaning that all of the movies literally take place a few days apart(per the Daizenshuu.) So like I mentioned earlier: I'm not sure when Goku would've have the chance to significantly level-up between these films..?

Like I said, that's why the movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline and clearly do their own thing. If we're strictly adhering to the anime timeline then yes, Goku shouldn't have any time to train with Grand Kaio again to get stronger anymore than he would have enough time to fight in a second afterlife tournament, but for the purposes of movie 12 he does.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, it's literally the same thing, just flipped around. It doesn't make sense for Goku to suddenly get stronger, and it doesn't make sense for everyone else to suddenly get weaker, either. I don't understand what's giving you this confidence that your side of the coin is any more reasonable of a rationalization.

Again, to me it's more reasonable to assume that Gohan/Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sake of the plot, than it is to assume that movie-verse Goku is just SO powerful that he can match the aforementioned in his SS2 state.

You're welcome to disagree, as neither side of the coin can be definitively proven. I'm simply voicing my opinion on the matter, just as you are voicing yours.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, that's your interpretation, at least. Maybe Toriyama would agree, maybe he wouldn't; I can't comment on that.

Pretty sure Toriyama would agree(back when he originally wrote the Boo saga, at least), given the abundance of evidence that points to:
Ultimate Gohan >> SS3 Gotenks >>> SS3 Goku >>>> SS2 Goku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I am pretty confident, though, that the folks at Toei Animation would disagree, given that that Goku fared just fine against Buutenks in the anime. Clearly not everybody involved in the production process was operating under the same assumptions as you. If you'd still like to insist that your interpretation is more true to the manga, that's fine, but then it's necessary to acknowledge that Toei's productions don't have to comply 1-to-1 with Toriyama's vision.

I agree that Toei, in and of itself, really doesn't give a shit about established canon/Toriyama scaling. The movies are also set in an alternate, non-canon timeline where anything could be possible. That's why I keep reiterating "relative to manga canon" and such... Because that has historically been the measuring stick that just about everyone has always used to gauge characters from the movies.

But again, you guys are welcome to assume that movie-verse SS2 Goku ~ non-nerfed/full power Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks. That's just not how I view things, is all. /shrug

StiltmanFTW CBvF

Or maybe... just maybe... Gohan and Gotenks suck really bad, Tori felt pity for them, so he gave them five minutes of fame he immediately forgot about?

I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks (manga), Mystic Gohan and Good Mister Buu all got trashed on the beginning of DBS, proving once and for all they really can't hold a candle to the top dogs such as Goku and Vegeta.

...

Then again, Super is quite weird.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Marikina
Like I said, that's why the movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline and clearly do their own thing. If we're strictly adhering to the anime timeline then yes, Goku shouldn't have any time to train with Grand Kaio again to get stronger anymore than he would have enough time to fight in a second afterlife tournament, but for the purposes of movie 12 he does.

I understand what you're trying to say, but again: the Daizenshuu outlines the timeframe in which the movies are set, and it's ALL during the Boo saga... So literally days apart.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Or maybe... just maybe... Gohan and Gotenks suck really bad, Tori felt pity for them, so he gave them five minutes of fame he immediately forgot about?
I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks (manga), Mystic Gohan and Good Mister Buu all got trashed on the beginning of DBS, proving once and for all they really can't hold a candle to the top dogs such as Goku and Vegeta.
...
Then again, Super is quite weird.

DBS is a shitshow when it comes to any sort of cohesive scaling, and Toriyama forgets the shit he has written all the time(as he readily admits.)

So for the purposes of this discussion I am only talking about the scaling he provided during the original Boo saga.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

It's really weird. Because already in the Saiyan Saga we're introduced to the idea of Gohan having greater potential than Goku, this is reinforced in the Cell Saga.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai, he wasn't able to transform to increase his power further. Effectively he was as powerful as he could be in his base form.

Chapter 496

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

👆

Gohan's "Ultimate" form essentially made all of his latent power/potential accessible in his base form. In that respect it was the most efficient powerup in DB history, as he no longer had to waste ki/stamina with transformations and whatnot.

We also know that Gohan was well above SS3 Gotenks, who, in turn, was implied to be significantly above even SS3 Goku. That's the original canon/manga scaling, at least.

StiltmanFTW CBvF

Originally posted by Galan007
DBS is a shitshow

Yet you keep making references to it... even in your sleep 😖hifty:

So now... I'm using your own weapon against you and striking you where it hurts the most.