Aquaman vs Big Barda

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Barda is also willing to do what is needed to win - for her, the honour is in the winning.

So saying what she would or wouldn't do, to me, is kinda moot. Like having Constantine or Loki or someone similar in a thread - if they can or need to cheat and bend the rules, they'll do so.

I’m not saying what she’s willing to do. I’m saying using her mega rod’s versatility in the way Beatboks has been suggesting in this thread. Look at RT’s I don’t see her phasing through attacks or attacking people offensively with phasing.

I think he's referring to Motherboxes in general being able to phase their users.

Look at RT’s I don’t see her phasing through attacks or attacking people offensively with phasing.

1. Respect threads don't show everything and quite often miss or missrepresent things.

2. I've not once said she would phase only that she can and she could. I have said repeatedly that she can use the MR ability to teleport things to deal with the likes of the trident. She has a lot of BFR feats in respect threads and in comics. But your lame ass response is when has she BFRd a weapon. Well since I've never seen her in a story where she was barred from just BFRing an opponent why would there be massive amounts of showings in RTs of minor teleport feats. RTs exist to show a characters best not a minor comparison.

If a guy has trained in an MA that has kicks but normally uses just his hands, when saif hands are tied he's going to use his feet.

But when it comes to you and Aquaman, his feats are always taken based on his highest no account what soever for his lows to average them out and everybody else is based on the Lowe's

I'm just going to say, we don't always need the exact scan to prove something.

Can Aquaman lift a 20 ton pencil? Well, we know he can lift 20 tons, we know he can lift pencils, so surely we don't need an exact scan of him lifting a 20 ton pencil.

Conversely, asking for the exact scan and using its absence as proof he can't, is wrong imo.

The argument then becomes if Barda can do her phasing etc before Aquaman clocks her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm just going to say, we don't always need the exact scan to prove something.

Can Aquaman lift a 20 ton pencil? Well, we know he can lift 20 tons, we know he can lift pencils, so surely we don't need an exact scan of him lifting a 20 ton pencil.

Conversely, asking for the exact scan and using its absence as proof he can't, is wrong imo.

The argument then becomes if Barda can do her phasing etc before Aquaman clocks her.

Honestly DS, I only recall her phasing twice, maybe 3 times. It's not something she is all that likely to use. It's just another option she has available, another arrow in the quiver as it were. Shes also never to my recall used gravity manip offensively. She's used it to fly and levitate aonthers, but it's there as an option.

Originally posted by beatboks
1. Respect threads don't show everything and quite often miss or missrepresent things.

2. I've not once said she would phase only that she can and she could. I have said repeatedly that she can use the MR ability to teleport things to deal with the likes of the trident. She has a lot of BFR feats in respect threads and in comics. But your lame ass response is when has she BFRd a weapon. Well since I've never seen her in a story where she was barred from just BFRing an opponent why would there be massive amounts of showings in RTs of minor teleport feats. RTs exist to show a characters best not a minor comparison.

If a guy has trained in an MA that has kicks but normally uses just his hands, when saif hands are tied he's going to use his feet.

But when it comes to you and Aquaman, his feats are always taken based on his highest no account what soever for his lows to average them out and everybody else is based on the Lowe's

If I can’t find her doing what you’re claiming she’s capable of doing in combat. Hell even before I go out and search for these feats your claiming. It’s on your part to show case the feats of what your claiming she’s capable of doing…. you’re arguments have been statements and faulty scaling for the most part. I don’t get how you have as high of a perception as you do. Because you debate terribly.

You rely on scaling and want to assume characters are operating at a high level because it helps your case. Not one durability feat you showed on this thread for Matrix was impressive. I don’t even know what level her durability is at based on anything you provided.

Honestly stay salty. At the end of the day these are fictional characters to me. If you want to get in your feelings because I don’t take your word on something that’s on you lol.

It’s on your part to show case the feats of what your claiming she’s capable of doing…. you’re arguments have been statements and faulty scaling for the most part.

1. I showed feats for everything I claimed except phasing or things well known like gravity manip on page 1. Which is exactly why I never pushed phasing as an option. I showed scans of her BFRing and porting opponents, I showed scans of her creating force fields, I showed scans of her taking down with blasts people more durable than Arthur. I dont care enough to skim a few dozen comics to find the one or two times I've seen it. Especially since one of her weapons is a mother box that it's common knowledge can do it anyway (as DS already alluded to and maybe that was how she achieved it the times I saw).

2. It's not false scaling at all. Arthur has no durability feats even close to those of Matrix. His average durability showings are also well below the average of Byrne level Supeman. As I already said the fact that the MR needed to doubleshot Superman and only single shot Matrix also proves the level the writer has that era Superman at.

Since in Durability Arthur at his peak is <<average Matrix which is = low Byrne are Superman but was < the version MR was shown to two shot (since it one shot Matrix) there is no faulty scaling involved.

For you on the other hand Arthur always scales to his highest showings. Because Byrne era had a low showing or two he always scales to those and hence any showing against Superman of that era is below Arthur. Ive even shown how Matrix scales to pre crisis SG, bit it's all false scaling because that's your unsupported point of view.

Funny how everyone else on the thread seems to agree with the points I've made. They clearly saw the evidence presented as enough and aren't just fanboying

Originally posted by beatboks
1. I showed feats for everything I claimed except phasing or things well known like gravity manip on page 1. Which is exactly why I never pushed phasing as an option. I showed scans of her BFRing and porting opponents, I showed scans of her creating force fields, I showed scans of her taking down with blasts people more durable than Arthur. I dont care enough to skim a few dozen comics to find the one or two times I've seen it. Especially since one of her weapons is a mother box that it's common knowledge can do it anyway (as DS already alluded to and maybe that was how she achieved it the times I saw).

2. It's not false scaling at all. Arthur has no durability feats even close to those of Matrix. His average durability showings are also well below the average of Byrne level Supeman. As I already said the fact that the MR needed to doubleshot Superman and only single shot Matrix also proves the level the writer has that era Superman at.

Since in Durability Arthur at his peak is <<average Matrix which is = low Byrne are Superman but was < the version MR was shown to two shot (since it one shot Matrix) there is no faulty scaling involved.

For you on the other hand Arthur always scales to his highest showings. Because Byrne era had a low showing or two he always scales to those and hence any showing against Superman of that era is below Arthur. Ive even shown how Matrix scales to pre crisis SG, bit it's all false scaling because that's your unsupported point of view.

Funny how everyone else on the thread seems to agree with the points I've made. They clearly saw the evidence presented as enough and aren't just fanboying

Like hell you did. Your clearly incapable of reading if you really think you provided feats for what I asked.

Show me Barda phasing? That’s what I asked show feats for what you claim she’d do in combat with either her mother Box or megarod. You’ve yet to do that.

Then your other issue is your faulty as hell ABC logic and trash scaling. Cause honestly what level is Matrix even operating at in the feats your showing? Is she planetary because she took heat vision? Is she multiversal? Because she can hang did well against inconsistent Pre-Crisis characters?

What are you even scaling the Megarod attack potency to? Is it planetary? Multiversal? Continental? That’s my issue with your several post on this thread so far. Your whole stance has been “Just take my word for it” or “LOL you highball Aquaman because you’re challenging my opinion” it’s ridiculous.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Like hell you did. Your clearly incapable of reading if you really think you provided feats for what I asked.

Show me Barda phasing? That’s what I asked show feats for what you claim she’d do in combat with either her mother Box or megarod. You’ve yet to do that.

Then your other issue is your faulty as hell ABC logic and trash scaling. Cause honestly what level is Matrix even operating at in the feats your showing? Is she planetary because she took heat vision? Is she multiversal? Because she can hang did well against inconsistent Pre-Crisis characters?

What are you even scaling the Megarod attack potency to? Is it planetary? Multiversal? Continental? That’s my issue with your several post on this thread so far. Your whole stance has been “Just take my word for it” or “LOL you highball Aquaman because you’re challenging my opinion” it’s ridiculous.

He's right about a lot of things though. I don't know why he included some of the feats for that Supergirl(Speedster scans have nothing for why it's impressive, and TK scans are irrelevant unless I missed Matrix also used TK shields and still got KOed) but he showed some physical feats.

While it's true he didn't show phasing (and like DS said probably meant Mother Box) you criticized him for not showing it while.....you posted a non canon comic where Aquaman counters it? If it's not canon, it's irrelevant 99% of the time, but you used it.

You criticized him for "ABC logic and trash scaling" yet you use the Starro example. In fact since I'm posting again, I'm happy to get back to the Orion vs Aquaman topic, but first shall bring up something here relevant to both. Your entire reason for using that hinges on it's an accurate comparison. Since you yourself criticized him for scaling, I'm going to use non scaling examples. What does Aquaman have even comparable to the following? And you must use Aquaman from this era(prior to the Waterhand) or before.

Gets punched from India to China(shortest distance I can find is over 1,800 miles).

https://bit.ly/3hEnNEt

https://bit.ly/3zj2vC6

Goes through an experimental(IIRC) nuclear reactor said to be "like a thousand atomic explosions a minute in there!!" Could be hyperbole obviously. It's not in these scans but despite the lead shield it outright killed trees(can't remember if one or more) so the radiation was serious.

https://m.imgur.com/a/wHYJNQE

Here Orion is physically fine after being hit by a Hellbore. Which create Firepits. This was after being hit by a combined telepathic attack from Giant clones.

https://i.imgur.com/9ytdkju.jpg

For reference, here's how the same series showed Firepits from space.

https://bit.ly/3EqsefY

Although a statement, Orion says that this trap might kill him. The trap is him being hit by a couple dozen Radion bombs followed by a thermonuclear bomb (over 10 megatons, I guess 12.8 given the "an additional 2.4" Orion says).

https://bit.ly/3nGBqqm

https://bit.ly/3zhgxUK

Yes a statement, but given the two previous examples he can take nukes, and he says he might be killed by a bunch of his weaknesses plus a a thermonuclear weapon.

This could just be hyperbolic claims, so include it or not, but ge says he's flown through radiation clouds of dying stars.

https://i.imgur.com/3zX2Nb7.jpg

So what feats does Aquaman have that are at least comparable for the Starro example to be anything but a poor showing for Orion? I mean in this very thread you're dismissing examples left and right as "ABC" and "trash scaling " so I'd imagine for you to argue Starro because Orion>Barda that Aquaman has the feats to back him taking something Orion couldn't. Unless you are just high balling Aquaman.

You dismissed someone bringing up Darkseid, by using Darkseid getting mugged. Which.....was Darkseid powerless and not even canon. :-/

https://www.cbr.com/i-love-ya-but-youre-strange-that-time-darkseid-got-mugged/

On Superman and Matrix it would be a better argument to argue they're blasted unexpectedly. Random Apokolipsian weapons have been capable of hurting or even killing Orion, so why assume you'd have to use low showings?

I mean your gas station argument. Same storyline had Superman take a bigger explosion (building filled with gas ignited) and not be KOed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

And previously under the same writer, he took the implosion of a Sun-Eater and survived. Sun-Eaters being so large they envelop the stars they consume.

https://bit.ly/3z9ZT9P

https://bit.ly/2XmcpFQ

Even barely having entered the Sun-Eater had an environment that other Legion members wouldn't survive long in 30th century space suits, making just the trip to the nucleus a bigger feat than "not KOed by exploding gas station."

https://bit.ly/3Cg3eG7

https://bit.ly/2VOFGbY

The implosion itself.

https://bit.ly/3kcXVAZ

https://bit.ly/3Exa4cv

It sent him hundreds of lightyears.

So given Superman takes a bigger explosion than the gas station, and same writer had him take much worse, you don't think instead of it being it was just the gas station, that the gas station was the straw that broke the camel's back in accumulative damage?

If not we already have 3 examples better than not being KOed by a gas station. Here's another, taking a nuke.

https://bit.ly/2Z1nvRA

Other examples off the top of my head include him taking Brainiac's non nuclear city destroying bombs, a mystical explosion that seemed to destroy an island, being thrown into the Sun(turned red) twice, surviving(without immediately being KOed) Krypton exploding(time travel) while under a red sun and exposed to Kryponite too IIRC, taking an future tech bomb that was said to be the biggest explosion he experienced (saying to paraphrase, "everything from a stick of dynamite to a nuke"😉, taking the nuclear demolition of the Moon, and when weakened(severely drained by Starbreaker) still being fine despite heat and pressure inside Almarc, I want to say the planet core but don't quote me. Plus a plethora of examples where even the worst are better than "KOed by gas station explosion." So, I think his average even then is higher than you want to give credit.

But I do hope to see some legitimate feats to make the Starro example better than scaling a low showing. And hope you're game for going back to Aquaman/Orion.

I criticized him on scaling because the scaling didn’t make sense. The era of Superman he was arguing for Barda oneshotting was known to be inferior in comparison to later eras of Clark’s Supermen.

I used Orion because he’s known to be physically more imposing than Barda because he’s more durable than Barda. Agree? Because I think the common consensus would be Orion > Barda. And Aquaman physically took an attack that oneshotted Orion. So I think that’s notable.

Even without scaling though. Aquaman took an attack that destroyed the biggest continent to having existed on the planet. What has Barda’s mega rod done in comparison to that? That’s my issue. It took out a version of Superman that gets knocked out by a fodder explosions?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11114/111146317/3687404-5129287298-35052.jpg

That’s my problem with the scaling in this thread… you guys are paying to much attention on who Barda took out and not factoring in their feats at that era… it’s ridiculous. I guarantee none of you would logically argue Barda beating or oneshotting Superman if you made a thread for it because he’s grown and had better feats since then.

Barda doesn’t have anything matching Aquaman taking an attack that destroyed Pre-Sunken Atlantis and I’m just going to leave it at that.

Morrison never wrote Orion weak either. Can’t say the same for Byrne and Superman though.

This isn’t an Aquaman/Orion thread. I’m not even interested in this debate. You guys need to stop dick riding this dude. It’s ridiculous.

Even other scaling could be brought up like Aquaman humbling Cerberus and Superman not even be able to phase him. Poseidon oneshotting Superman. Triton beating Poseidon and Aquaman beating Triton. Triton restraining Wonder Woman and Aquaman beating Triton.

The fact Aquaman was the only one capable of originally getting through Graves Pretas. I already know Supes will have more scaling in his favor and better personal showings given his position at DC but there’s stuff that exist in Aquaman’s favor as well. There was that time he did more damage to Titus compared to the rest of the league outside Superman. Which includes Flash, GL and Martian Manhunter. The time he oneshotted someone who twoshotted Martian Manhunter (Olympian) or had Despero resort to Tp because he couldn’t get physically overpower Aquaman. After already having beat Martian Manhunter under the same writer.

But nonetheless all the stuff just reinforces my point on what makes Barda’s scaling more valid than any of that…

I’m going with Aquaman because of his trident and the crown he has on his head. He barely goes all out, and holds back most of the time.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I criticized him on scaling because the scaling didn’t make sense. The era of Superman he was arguing for Barda oneshotting was known to be inferior in comparison to later eras of Clark’s Supermen.

I used Orion because he’s known to be physically more imposing than Barda because he’s more durable than Barda. Agree? Because I think the common consensus would be Orion > Barda. And Aquaman physically took an attack that oneshotted Orion. So I think that’s notable.

Even without scaling though. Aquaman took an attack that destroyed the biggest continent to having existed on the planet. What has Barda’s mega rod done in comparison to that? That’s my issue. It took out a version of Superman that gets knocked out by a fodder explosions?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11114/111146317/3687404-5129287298-35052.jpg

That’s my problem with the scaling in this thread… you guys are paying to much attention on who Barda took out and not factoring in their feats at that era… it’s ridiculous. I guarantee none of you would logically argue Barda beating or oneshotting Superman if you made a thread for it because he’s grown and had better feats since then.

Barda doesn’t have anything matching Aquaman taking an attack that destroyed Pre-Sunken Atlantis and I’m just going to leave it at that.

Lmao I promise Aquaman has better feats than Gas station level. Because that’s your claim right Aquaman’s best feats vs Superman’s lowest?

There’s also that time under Brian Hitch where Rebirth Superman was struggling with the core of the planet and Aquaman in his very last issue of his run was just chilling in the core of the planet…. But entertain yourself and do whatever you want the rest of what you post will be a discussion between you and yourself…

Barda boils the moisture out of Arthur.

Originally posted by cdtm
Barda boils the moisture out of Arthur.

Scans?

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Lmao I promise Aquaman has better feats than Gas station level. Because that’s your claim right Aquaman’s best feats vs Superman’s lowest?

There’s also that time under Brian Hitch where Rebirth Superman was struggling with the core of the planet and Aquaman in his very last issue of his run was just chilling in the core of the planet…. But entertain yourself and do whatever you want the rest of what you post will be a discussion between you and yourself…

Hitch had a weakened Superman literally rip future Aquaman's arms off who was enhanced. Aquaman was chilling in Earth's core where it wasn't getting agitated and earthquakes enough to shake entire Earth by a special machine.

This isn't comicvine. Aquaman is no more Superman's peer than Thor is.

Gotta respond to this first.

"Lmao I promise Aquaman has better feats than Gas station level. Because that’s your claim right Aquaman’s best feats vs Superman’s lowest?"

😆 That's not what Abhi said. He's pointing out you're treating it like one low showing against Aquaman's best. Why would he ask if you want him to post feats even before DOS? I already gave multiple examples better than what you're arguing for Aquaman.

So I can only quick quote you and break your post down argument by argument like I want. So I miss anything relevant tell me.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I criticized him on scaling because the scaling didn’t make sense. The era of Superman he was arguing for Barda oneshotting was known to be inferior in comparison to later eras of Clark’s Supermen.

I used Orion because he’s known to be physically more imposing than Barda because he’s more durable than Barda. Agree? Because I think the common consensus would be Orion > Barda. And Aquaman physically took an attack that oneshotted Orion. So I think that’s notable.

Even without scaling though. Aquaman took an attack that destroyed the biggest continent to having existed on the planet. What has Barda’s mega rod done in comparison to that? That’s my issue. It took out a version of Superman that gets knocked out by a fodder explosions?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11114/111146317/3687404-5129287298-35052.jpg

That’s my problem with the scaling in this thread… you guys are paying to much attention on who Barda took out and not factoring in their feats at that era… it’s ridiculous. I guarantee none of you would logically argue Barda beating or oneshotting Superman if you made a thread for it because he’s grown and had better feats since then.

Barda doesn’t have anything matching Aquaman taking an attack that destroyed Pre-Sunken Atlantis and I’m just going to leave it at that.

I don't see anybody arguing Superman's later feats for Barda. In fact Beatboks said--

Originally posted by beatboks
The weakest Superman is still >>>> more durable than Arthur and she took him down in 2 blasts. Matrix Supergirl's durability is >> than Arthur's also and she took her down in 1 blast. Lobo can and has blitzed faster characters than Arthur and was BFR'd light years before he could get to her.

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, unless you're just misinterpreting his arguments you're arguing a strawman. But it's gonna be kinda hard to argue otherwise since Superman has multiple feats, one shown, that beats the best you gave for Aquaman. Yes during the period you're citing. I can throw in being crushed by a golem with the strength of a planet and being near artificially created black holes, but didn't include them at the time since while taking place before DOS, they were published after. But I see you're including similar examples for Aquaman.

Yes, Orion is physically superior to Barda. But you're not giving what I requested. You cited one example and it still doesn't match the Hellbore feat. You criticized others for scans but didn't give it(and I could understand if you said you'll have to get it later, but you didn't say it). Even if the feat is legit, I don't know if it's from the period I asked for, due to Aquaman seems to have become more powerful since. So if you can't come up with examples at least comparable to what I posted for Orion, then Aquaman taking something Orion couldn't can be dismissed as easily as you saying "exploding gas stations."

So I see you don't acknowledge it even being possible that the gas station was the straw that broke the camel's back(given the fighting against Doomsday) and ignore the other examples given that are more. Are you trying to argue Superman at that point was gas station level, or what? I'm not arguing that Barda KOing Superman means it's her blasting force greater than anything he's faced. But he's taken so much more than your example, which you haven't shown, that the biggest continent on Earth is meh by comparison. Even ignoring red sunlight and IIRC Kryptonite exposure being involved with Superman taking Krypton's destruction, Krypton was bigger than Jupiter.

Or maybe people are factoring in more than just his lows? It does indeed feel like you're just going by Aquaman's highs and using other characters' lows when it suits you. And for the record, I'm not arguing Barda would win in an actual fight even for that era of Superman.

I don't think anybody argued Barda one-shoting Superman at later points. Beatboks didn't even argue Superman got one shot. He said three times 2 shot. So what's got you going on here outside a strawman?

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Morrison never wrote Orion weak either. Can’t say the same for Byrne and Superman though.

This isn’t an Aquaman/Orion thread. I’m not even interested in this debate. You guys need to stop dick riding this dude. It’s ridiculous.

Even other scaling could be brought up like Aquaman humbling Cerberus and Superman not even be able to phase him. Poseidon oneshotting Superman. Triton beating Poseidon and Aquaman beating Triton. Triton restraining Wonder Woman and Aquaman beating Triton.

The fact Aquaman was the only one capable of originally getting through Graves Pretas. I already know Supes will have more scaling in his favor and better personal showings given his position at DC but there’s stuff that exist in Aquaman’s favor as well. There was that time he did more damage to Titus compared to the rest of the league outside Superman. Which includes Flash, GL and Martian Manhunter. The time he oneshotted someone who twoshotted Martian Manhunter (Olympian) or had Despero resort to Tp because he couldn’t get physically overpower Aquaman. After already having beat Martian Manhunter under the same writer.

Morrison hardly wrote Orion doing anything. The best he did was blast Starro(which says nothing about durability), other than that only the ROCK OF AGES future but that was him powerless using his intelligence comes to mind, and that doesn't apply at all to physical stats either. I would argue Barda did more than him during Morrison's run. What are you using to argue how powerful Morrison wrote Orion?

Well I wanted to see if you wanted to go back to that, and as I pointed out. I wanted you to bring examples for Aquaman at least on the level as I brought for Orion, because otherwise your argument for arguing Aquaman >Barda by the Starro example can be dismissed as a low showing like you dismiss Superman. But I see you don't want to lose that. Concessions accepted. And 😆 from the guy trident riding Aquaman.

Well I would have to read these examples for myself, because I know you're giving a couple the same treatment as Carter on WW fighting Amazo when he needed it, you've argued as if people are treating Barda blasting Superman then like it would happen the same later, and unless I missed it, you never acknowledged your error on Darkseid getting mugged. Why not? If you just didn't know he was powerless and it was non canon, why not admit the mistake and say you stand by the rest? Or....did you know it wasn't canon?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Right, Aquaman has better feats than Superman's lowest showing ever. No, my claim is that even average showings of Superman he is far more powerful than Aquaman.

Hitch had a weakened Superman literally rip future Aquaman's arms off who was enhanced. Aquaman was chilling in Earth's core where it wasn't getting agitated and earthquakes enough to shake entire Earth by a special machine.

This isn't comicvine. Aquaman is no more Superman's peer than Thor is.

How is using scraps from Cyborg as your ligaments a Amped Aquaman? Aquaman is stronger than Cyborg. That future Aquaman was amped sure but it wasn’t by physicals.

Nowhere did I argue Aquaman was peers to Superman. My issue is using Superman to argue Barda is above Aquaman or that her damage output is above what Aquaman can take. When in reality if it came down to it Beatboks and probably anyone else here would struggle to actually put that blast at an actual level. Did Barda blast Superman with another “Gas station level blast” or are we just assuming it was planetary and beyond just because it was Superman. That’s one of my issues with the arguments for her. Because that’s some faulty scaling I could easily bring up the fact Aquaman’s trident pierced through an amped Kryptonian all the same which was Rao.

No one here was arguing Aquaman was peers to Superman. I swear to god you and the other guy like to jump into any and every thread and bring up Superman or lurk in case any potential mention in any way you misinterpret (note misinterpret cause you don’t read right) to jump in and start rambling in lengthy as post. No way in hell am I sitting through and reading the other guys post…