House of the Dragon

Started by Robtard12 pages

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah, Daemon benefits way too much from having cartoonish action hero feats that no GoT character could hope to match. And show Jaime at least is kind of a punk.

If we're talking pure books then Jaime is one of the best swordsman ever, yes. Probably at least on par with the likes of Dayne and Selmy in his prime. He'd still lose to the Mountain like every retard who swings an arming sword at him would though. 👆

I was mostly going with books and fluff 👆

I do agree with Mountain > Jamie, not due to skill, but due to not being able to hurt Gregor enough with his sword, before Gregor cleaves him in half. eg book Jamie would most likely beat the Viper, but the Viper was specially suited to take down Gregor with his weapon of choice and poison.

Originally posted by Robtard
I was mostly going with books and fluff 👆

I do agree with Mountain > Jamie, not due to skill, but due to not being able to hurt Gregor enough with his sword, before Gregor cleaves him in half. eg book Jamie would most likely beat the Viper, but the Viper was specially suited to take down Gregor with his weapon of choice and poison.

That's essentially the summary of my argument yeah, and I even acknowledge that were Jaime willing to adapt like Oberyn did and play around Gregor's strengths he would be capable of beating him too.

Jaime's too prideful about being the best swordsman in Westeros to do that though. And he'd get crushed as a result.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't give a **** what Jaime thinks. He thought he'd paste Brienne on the jaw and be done with it despite the fact that he was starving, unarmoured, and hadn't fought or even exercised in like a year, the man's judgment is dogshit.

My favorite character is Stannis you pedophile.

He's not armed with a spear that can actually reliably do that, like Viper. He's armed with a 36" arming sword which would have trouble cutting through chainmail, much less piercing the thickest armour in the Seven Kingdoms.

You only briefly touched upon this but this is in fact exactly why Gregor would win, along with the much better durability and strength. Per Oberyn himself, it is "the only way to counter his reach", using a spear that is.

You're reading what you want into Bronn's words. He never described him as slow, only stating he was "never fast". So we can take it that he is not fast like some of the faster fighters or Bronn, but that doesn't mean he's slow like Strongboar is explicitly stated to be by Jaime.

Bronn said he "might" be able to, but a single slip up would mean his death. Much like it did for Oberyn, who was both the better warrior and more importantly far better equipped for the fight than Bronn would be with his standard arming sword.

My friend, there is not a single human being in history that is as strong as Gregor Clegane, who can wield a greatsword with one hand, cut people in half with it, and crush skulls with his grip strength. He killed both Raymun Darry and the horse he rode in on with a single blow, despite the fact that he would presumably be wearing plate mail. He is the only character in the books that isn't outright supernatural who is superhuman.

There might be some book characters with comparable strength, like Maelys the Monstrous, but even they don't have the same accolades or showings or sheer size as Gregor.

You also don't actually appreciate that the strength isn't even his biggest advantage over Jaime. It's durability. On top of feeling almost no pain, he is clad in the thickest and heaviest suit of plate mail in the setting, with chainmail and boiled leather below.

Jaime would have to stab at the very few weak points in Gregor's armour many times to bring him down. Gregor would have to hit Jaime a single time while having reach over twice as great. That's why Gregor would win.

He had enough stamina to fight a prolonged fight against a much less heavily armed and armoured opponent while injured from prior battles (per Tyrion) and even after getting stabbed in the armpit, behind the knee, and in the belly with a poison spear he had enough energy to overpower Oberyn and explode his skull with his hands.

Against a fighter who has to fight well inside of Gregor's range and is also clad in (useless against Gregor) plate mail I think he'll do okay.

Jaime wears a plate helm that actually is way more cumbersome and ridiculous so I frankly doubt this will be much of an advantage for Jaime.

The one (one, singular) strike Oberyn actually met directly with his shield sent him reeling backward and put him in a backward flight that was only broken when an unlucky stableboy took a hit that was meant for Oberyn, distracting Gregor with his screaming. I don't think meeting Gregor head-on is the answer my friend.

With a weapon vastly better suited for it than Jaime's that's poisoned. By contrast, Jaime would have been done after the first stab.

I don't know why you're bringing this up like it detracts from Gregor. Per both showings and every statement no non-supernatural character in the setting takes hits like Gregor. Per Bronn he doesn't seem to feel hits like he should, and as said he had enough strength to very quickly and violently kill Oberyn at the end of their fight. Do you think Jaime can endure nearly as much pain or physical trauma and still be dangerous? Not based on anything in the books.

Something that Jaime could never replicate with an arming sword lol.

I don't know why, considering Gregor was quick enough to parry and even at one point tag Oberyn who was much more lightly armoured than Jaime would be while fighting with a weapon that actually counters Gregor's reach advantage.

The bottom line is this: Jaime fights in the standard Westerosi style with a sword, shield, and plate mail. Does he have the tools to beat Gregor if he adapted against him and went with a lightly armoured with a spear set-up? Yes. But Jaime's pride as a swordsman would never permit him to do that. So he would be fighting a man who is strong enough to kill him with a single point of contact while wielding a weapon that affords him half as much reach and would have to get within bull rushing range to even attempt to do any damage to Gregor, and because of Gregor's freakish tolerance for pain Jaime risks death even if he manages to slip between plates and wound him because Gregor could kill Jaime by forcing himself on top of him and crushing his skull. Oberyn knew he had no chance of beating Gregor by fighting with a sword for those reasons. He knew entering Gregor's threat radius is way too risky to be worth it and so went with a weapon that allowed him to harass and annoy Gregor until he got tired and could go for the kill. And used poison weapons no less.

Give Jaime a valyrian steel sword or Dawn and things might be different but just as they are Jaime doesn't have what it takes tbh imo fam

Actually, solid argument (even if you argue like a dikhead). Main part that swayed me was Jaime not being able to cut through the chain at the joints with his sword. I wasn't aware that was a thing. That's a huge problem and saves Gregors behind.

Good job on based Stannis being your fav. From the way you talked about Gregor over the past decade, I assumed it was him. I don't think I've ever seen you talk about Mannis before

Also makes me look at knight swordfights differently in general. I figure most of them have some kind of chainmail and similar swords. How tf do you even cut through that to damage each other? Just hope for blunt damage causing internal injuries/bone breaking? Focus on piercing with a needle type sword and hope for the best? At that point, seems like a warhammer is better for chainmail.

So, how much damage could Gregor do to one of the dragons with a double handed greatsword strike?

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Actually, solid argument (even if you argue like a dikhead). Main part that swayed me was Jaime not being able to cut through the chain at the joints with his sword. I wasn't aware that was a thing. That's a huge problem and saves Gregors behind.

Good job on based Stannis being your fav. From the way you talked about Gregor over the past decade, I assumed it was him. I don't think I've ever seen you talk about Mannis before

Because it's mostly in versus contexts, and as cool and badass as he is in general Stannis is not one of the best fighters in the kingdoms.

I did ***** about the way he was treated by the show but then so did everyone. DnD did him incredibly dirty.

Also makes me look at knight swordfights differently in general. I figure most of them have some kind of chainmail and similar swords. How tf do you even cut through that to damage each other? Just hope for blunt damage causing internal injuries/bone breaking? Focus on piercing with a needle type sword and hope for the best? At that point, seems like a warhammer is better for chainmail.

So one of the anachronisms that a lot of medieval and fantasy projects have is the idea of the sword and shield knight.

In reality a shield does not provide any particular protection that their armour doesn't already do, so it is simply more practical to lose the shield and wield a two-handed weapon when wearing full plate like a halberd. Swords are actually bluntly sidearms, used when deprived of your main weapon or when in polite company where it would be improper to walk around with your big ass halberd.

Fully armoured longsword (as described in the books Jaime and friends actually wield arming swords, George just fell into the common mistake of describing an arming sword as a longsword) fencing was definitely a thing and I didn't even bring it up because George R.R. Martin doesn't seem to draw on how those fights actually happened but if I did that would make Gregor even more undefeatable in a straight sword fight. Basically, you used the longsword often as a bludgeoning weapon to disorient your opponent:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_%28Codex_Wallerstein%29_107v.jpg

As shown here. The technique is probably most commonly called "mordhau" these days.

But in general you kind of used the longsword as a lever and actually wrestled the opponent to the ground, where they could then be killed by slipping your dagger through their visor.

Obviously, a style of combat that heavily involved grappling would disproportionately favor the biggest and strongest man in Westeros.

Knights in movies don't fight like this because audiences are normie smoothbrains with shit taste who can't appreciate kino. George is better than most, he actually treats plate mail with respect as shown where Barristan fairly easily defeated a much younger pit fighter by exploiting his armour to only seriously parry blows to his unarmoured face while cutting and chipping away at him, but he still portrays swords as purely slash and stab weapons when the Medieval longsword is one of the most versatile (if not the most) swords the world has ever seen.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because it's mostly in versus contexts, and as cool and badass as he is in general Stannis is not one of the best fighters in the kingdoms.

I did ***** about the way he was treated by the show but then so did everyone. DnD did him incredibly dirty.

So one of the anachronisms that a lot of medieval and fantasy projects have is the idea of the sword and shield knight.

In reality a shield does not provide any particular protection that their armour doesn't already do, so it is simply more practical to lose the shield and wield a two-handed weapon when wearing full plate like a halberd. Swords are actually bluntly sidearms, used when deprived of your main weapon or when in polite company where it would be improper to walk around with your big ass halberd.

Fully armoured longsword (as described in the books Jaime and friends actually wield arming swords, George just fell into the common mistake of describing an arming sword as a longsword) fencing was definitely a thing and I didn't even bring it up because George R.R. Martin doesn't seem to draw on how those fights actually happened but if I did that would make Gregor even more undefeatable in a straight sword fight. Basically, you used the longsword often as a bludgeoning weapon to disorient your opponent:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_%28Codex_Wallerstein%29_107v.jpg

As shown here. The technique is probably most commonly called "mordhau" these days.

But in general you kind of used the longsword as a lever and actually wrestled the opponent to the ground, where they could then be killed by slipping your dagger through their visor.

Obviously, a style of combat that heavily involved grappling would disproportionately favor the biggest and strongest man in Westeros.

Knights in movies don't fight like this because audiences are normie smoothbrains with shit taste who can't appreciate kino. George is better than most, he actually treats plate mail with respect as shown where Barristan fairly easily defeated a much younger pit fighter by exploiting his armour to only seriously parry blows to his unarmoured face while cutting and chipping away at him, but he still portrays swords as purely slash and stab weapons when the Medieval longsword is one of the most versatile (if not the most) swords the world has ever seen.

Are you one of those types that notices brigandine armor doesn't exist?

Originally posted by NemeBro

I did ***** about the way he was treated by the show but then so did everyone. DnD did him incredibly dirty.

Something I always thought was an interesting but not overtly discussed is how a huge number of the deaths in the plot are essentially the seven kingdoms weakening themselves before the night king invades. The deaths of Robert, Ned, Stannis, Tywin, Randall Tarly, Roose Bolton and a few others basically destroys all the war tacticians that would actually be useful in the great war. Yet it's not really acknowledged the damage that is done.

Who cares about those nuances when little Arya can one-shot the deathlord and save the world

Gotta subvert those expectations, rush to the end and move on to those sweet sweet Star Wars dolla bills ya'll.

Then get it taken away cos you royally fùcked up GoT.

Originally posted by Robtard
Who cares about those nuances when little Arya can one-shot the deathlord and save the world

That was the main thing I thought was dumb, but otherwise I didn't mind the ending as much as most people.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
That was the main thing I thought was dumb, but otherwise I didn't mind the ending as much as most people.

You didn't think Bran as emperor was out of place?

Came out of left field for me, wharging does not make good leader qualities.

And yet still beats Jon Snow, if only because literally anyone beats that wishy washy emo.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
That was the main thing I thought was dumb, but otherwise I didn't mind the ending as much as most people.

She was built up to it, it just happened so fast and at the all too perfect time.

Also shows you that the Faceless Men cult could easily run all of the world if they wanted.

Originally posted by Robtard
She was built up to it, it just happened so fast and at the all too perfect time.

Also shows you that the Faceless Men cult could easily run all of the world if they wanted.

They work for the Iron Bank, who does effectively rule the world.

Even those who sat on the Iron Throne bowed to money lenders.

Originally posted by cdtm
They work for the Iron Bank, who does effectively rule the world.

Even those who sat on the Iron Throne bowed to money lenders.

Go on...

On with what? Tywin Lannister of all people handled them delicately. Cersi was stressing over her debts.

It's just a fact wars and kingdoms cost, Iron Bank had money, and for whatever reason no one thought to just take their wealth.

Likely because they controlled the Faceless Men.

So how far along are the books now, and estimates to completion?

Planning on starting them, if I don't do The Culture or Wheel of Time.

The books are just as far along as they have been for 11 years... We've been waiting on Winds of Winter for a loooooong time. Dance of Dragons (the most recent book that was released) came out shortly after the first season of GoT ended.

And the series will never be completed. Maybe WoW will be released but the final book certainly never will be. The story has outgrown him.

GRRM will die before he finishes the books. I've my doubts Winds of Winter will be ever released, I've heard varying dates over the last 10 years, now it's pushed back to late 2023.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because it's mostly in versus contexts, and as cool and badass as he is in general Stannis is not one of the best fighters in the kingdoms.

I did ***** about the way he was treated by the show but then so did everyone. DnD did him incredibly dirty.

So one of the anachronisms that a lot of medieval and fantasy projects have is the idea of the sword and shield knight.

In reality a shield does not provide any particular protection that their armour doesn't already do, so it is simply more practical to lose the shield and wield a two-handed weapon when wearing full plate like a halberd. Swords are actually bluntly sidearms, used when deprived of your main weapon or when in polite company where it would be improper to walk around with your big ass halberd.

Fully armoured longsword (as described in the books Jaime and friends actually wield arming swords, George just fell into the common mistake of describing an arming sword as a longsword) fencing was definitely a thing and I didn't even bring it up because George R.R. Martin doesn't seem to draw on how those fights actually happened but if I did that would make Gregor even more undefeatable in a straight sword fight. Basically, you used the longsword often as a bludgeoning weapon to disorient your opponent:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_%28Codex_Wallerstein%29_107v.jpg

As shown here. The technique is probably most commonly called "mordhau" these days.

But in general you kind of used the longsword as a lever and actually wrestled the opponent to the ground, where they could then be killed by slipping your dagger through their visor.

Obviously, a style of combat that heavily involved grappling would disproportionately favor the biggest and strongest man in Westeros.

Knights in movies don't fight like this because audiences are normie smoothbrains with shit taste who can't appreciate kino. George is better than most, he actually treats plate mail with respect as shown where Barristan fairly easily defeated a much younger pit fighter by exploiting his armour to only seriously parry blows to his unarmoured face while cutting and chipping away at him, but he still portrays swords as purely slash and stab weapons when the Medieval longsword is one of the most versatile (if not the most) swords the world has ever seen.

I appreciate the indepth explanations. Pretty cool stuff you don't really ever see translated anywhere (even more seemingly accurate medieval games/movie settings). That tidbit about the shield being neigh pointless is especially wild. I never understood why anyone would want to forgo that in favor of a big/heavy greatsword that left them open. I'd also assume most people back then couldn't afford chainmail though, let alone full suits of armor. That's probably where shields come in. Peasants covered in leather. Kind of kills the cool factor of your stereotypical sword and board knight though.

I'm actually looking up differences and stats in swords rn. A simple arming sword is around 2.5lbs. A longsword is around 3lbs, and a greatsword is around 6 lbs. None are as heavy as I would have assumed (them being long pieces of iron). The greatsword especially. I'm sure it wears on you as you swing, but I figured it'd be something insane like 20 lbs if even Gregor was getting tired one handing it. That or he has a special bigger greatsword made specifically for him. Not completely out of the question since he's been described as cleaving through multiple people around him in full out battles.

When you say kino, you mean kinaesthetics? That's actually something I specialize in IRL as a career (though obviously not in terms of medieval combat or anything). Where'd you learn specifics? I wouldn't mind a good book on that tbh (my reading time has opened up considerably recently). Or do you just have an interest in medieval combat and picked up trivia over the years?

Originally posted by cdtm
So, how much damage could Gregor do to one of the dragons with a double handed greatsword strike?

3d6 +6