Originally posted by NemeBroHell ya. Hopefully they don't gimp him then. I know Cole is supposed to be pretty up there too. Harwin was supposed to be a beast too. So far, 0/2.
Aemon the Dragonknight is considered to be possibly the greatest knight in Westeros' history and he praised Cregan as the best swordsman he ever fought so maybe.
Originally posted by jaden_2.0He's right though, Jaime Lannister would buttrape any character in House of the Dragon. Probably multiple at the same time.
Originally posted by jaden_2.0He also nearly killed Robb at Whispering Wood and only failed to because his sword got stuck in a Karstarks skull. Robb was described as "shaken" and "terrified" by what Jaime displayed on the battlefield, and was sure Jaime would kill him there if he hadn't gotten lucky.
In fairness he fair managed to beat his own cousin to death.
But yeah, sure. Hold him being a POW against him as if that helps your argument, I guess.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
He also nearly killed Robb at Whispering Wood and only failed to because his sword got stuck in a Karstarks skull. Robb was described as "shaken" and "terrified" by what Jaime displayed on the battlefield, and was sure Jaime would kill him there if he hadn't gotten lucky.But yeah, sure. Hold him being a POW against him as if that helps your argument, I guess.
Yeah. My "argument".
Calm down, seriouser guy.
Originally posted by RobtardNah, Daemon benefits way too much from having cartoonish action hero feats that no GoT character could hope to match. And show Jaime at least is kind of a punk.
Jamie Lannister would have beat them all.
If we're talking pure books then Jaime is one of the best swordsman ever, yes. Probably at least on par with the likes of Dayne and Selmy in his prime. He'd still lose to the Mountain like every retard who swings an arming sword at him would though. 👆
Begs the question, who actually was the best fighter in GoT between reputation and on screen feats
Barristan Selmy has arguably the best reputation but got killed by the sons of the harpy in his only fight in the show
Ned Stark fought well against Jaime Lannister and Selmy said he'd seen him cut down a dozen great knights
Jaime Lannister has a great reputation but was bested by Brienne even if he was weakened by captivity. He didn't have many other great moments after that
Brienne didn't have a great reputation yet beat Loras Tyrell, Jaime Lannister and The Hound in single combat
Arya held Brienne to a stalemate while having absolutely zero reputation
Then you've got Oberyn Martell who was a renowned fighter and who essentially beat Gregor Clegane
The Hound beat Polliver and his crew, fought well against Brienne, fought well at the battle of the Blackwater and against zombie Gregor.
Jon Snow got his ass kicked from pillar to post but basically never lost a fight
Jorah did well in the fighting pits and defending Dany at Winterfell
Then there's Ser Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy and a reputation for being as good as Selmy.
Greyworm also has a beast showing at the infiltration of Yunkai when they sneak into the city.
So who was the actual best?
Originally posted by NemeBroI always kind of wondered about this. TBH, I think Jaime could take Mountain for a few reasons.
Nah, Daemon benefits way too much from having cartoonish action hero feats that no GoT character could hope to match. And show Jaime at least is kind of a punk.If we're talking pure books then Jaime is one of the best swordsman ever, yes. Probably at least on par with the likes of Dayne and Selmy in his prime. He'd still lose to the Mountain like every retard who swings an arming sword at him would though. 👆
You remember that paragraph or two with book Jaime ranking all the fighters he's ever come across? He seemed to think he could dice them all, Hound and Mountain included. He considered a few known fighters stronger (not many, Book Jaime is apparently pretty strong), but knew he could beat them all (those still living) with speed and skill (he also stated he considered The Hound more dangerous). Obviously, it's a POV so potentially biased. Still, he always seemed to recognize strengths/weaknesses and always gave good fighters their fair due. He's also obviously seen the Mountain fight before, so it's not like he'd be taken by surprise.
I'm possibly biased too since he's my favorite character (potentially like you with Mountain). He could take the weakspots in Mountains armor, like Viper. He doesn't have that reach advantage from the spear, and obviously doesn't have the strength advantage, but he has a huge speed, stam, and skill advantage (Bronn described Mountain as slow, but still deceptively quick for his size). Even Bronn thought he had a chance at taking him by dancing around, and he's no Jaime.
Plus, it's not like Jaimes never fought at a strength/speed disadvantage. Dude fought the Smiling Knight (described as "The Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big but twice as mad."😉 to a standstill as a kid squire before he ever even got training from Dayne and Selmy, and Smiling Knight is someone who was quick and skilled enough to last in an extended duel with Dayne right after that (Dayne was so impressed, he knighted Jaime right after). I'd imagine the strength and size disadvantage would be similar to Prime Jaime vs Mountain. Selmy also considered Jaime the greatest natural swordsman he's ever seen.
Gregor himself had a few weakness besides being slow too. Shit stamina (Tyrion noted he wasn't able to lift his sword as high a bit into the fight; this was before Viper even tagged him), and shit vision (Tyrion noted Viper was taking advantage of the narrow slits in the helm to keep out of his vision). Even when Viper lost his spear and Mountain closed the distance, he was able to dodge and block hits with his small shield (so I don't see why Jaime couldn't parry/redirect a few swings). Even his armor started to get heavy (his knee buckled as he tried to take a step after Viper slashed his armpit). He straight up went down after the second hit severed his hamstrings. Two targeted hits, and he was basically done. Viper even managed to put the spear through Cleganes armored stomach, out the back, and into the ground to pin him (though it took all his body weight and broke the spear at the wooden shaft).
I always thought book Jaime could take Mountain with some pretty quick, targeted attacks. It's also kind of hard to see Mountain tagging him.
Originally posted by jaden_2.0Based just on screen feats in the show? Dayne. His dual swords stuff was kind of dumb, but dude fought and comfortably beat four guys at the same time and blocked half the hits without even looking.
Begs the question, who actually was the best fighter in GoT between reputation and on screen featsBarristan Selmy has arguably the best reputation but got killed by the sons of the harpy in his only fight in the show
Ned Stark fought well against Jaime Lannister and Selmy said he'd seen him cut down a dozen great knights
Jaime Lannister has a great reputation but was bested by Brienne even if he was weakened by captivity. He didn't have many other great moments after that
Brienne didn't have a great reputation yet beat Loras Tyrell, Jaime Lannister and The Hound in single combat
Arya held Brienne to a stalemate while having absolutely zero reputation
Then you've got Oberyn Martell who was a renowned fighter and who essentially beat Gregor Clegane
The Hound beat Polliver and his crew, fought well against Brienne, fought well at the battle of the Blackwater and against zombie Gregor.
Jon Snow got his ass kicked from pillar to post but basically never lost a fight
Jorah did well in the fighting pits and defending Dany at WinterfellThen there's Ser Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy and a reputation for being as good as Selmy.
Greyworm also has a beast showing at the infiltration of Yunkai when they sneak into the city.
So who was the actual best?
Other than him? Hound, Oberyn, or Arya. Kind of dumb that Arya is up there, but she made Brienne look like a joke. I'd even lean towards her. Things got so stupid after season 4.
Originally posted by jaden_2.0In the show?
Begs the question, who actually was the best fighter in GoT between reputation and on screen featsBarristan Selmy has arguably the best reputation but got killed by the sons of the harpy in his only fight in the show
Ned Stark fought well against Jaime Lannister and Selmy said he'd seen him cut down a dozen great knights
Jaime Lannister has a great reputation but was bested by Brienne even if he was weakened by captivity. He didn't have many other great moments after that
Brienne didn't have a great reputation yet beat Loras Tyrell, Jaime Lannister and The Hound in single combat
Arya held Brienne to a stalemate while having absolutely zero reputation
Then you've got Oberyn Martell who was a renowned fighter and who essentially beat Gregor Clegane
The Hound beat Polliver and his crew, fought well against Brienne, fought well at the battle of the Blackwater and against zombie Gregor.
Jon Snow got his ass kicked from pillar to post but basically never lost a fight
Jorah did well in the fighting pits and defending Dany at WinterfellThen there's Ser Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy and a reputation for being as good as Selmy.
Greyworm also has a beast showing at the infiltration of Yunkai when they sneak into the city.
So who was the actual best?
Dayne, no question. No one else compares tbh. Jaime and Ned are roughly equal and Jaime is touted as the best fighter in Westeros or at least the most skilled swordsman, and Dayne would have killed him despite the fact that Ned outnumbered him. Jaime as stated isn't quite the badass his book counterpart is but his only real loss had extenuating circumstances. The only people who would have any chance against Dayne 1v1 (barring White Walkers or other supernatural foes) are outright superhumans like Gregor and Sandor but their armour in the show is so shit after season one Dayne's superior skill would probably carry him.
Brienne is overrated tbh. Both of her wins against Jaime and Sandor were against a guy who had been rotting in a cell for a year and a guy made sluggish from a nasty infection respectively. That she had so much trouble with the latter takes her out of the rankings. She did beat Loras fairly, but show Loras is a joke and has done nothing worth mentioning besides beating Gregor in a joust while riding a mare that made Clegane's stallion go buck wild.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
I always kind of wondered about this. TBH, I think Jaime could take Mountain for a few reasons.You remember that paragraph or two with book Jaime ranking all the fighters he's ever come across? He seemed to think he could dice them all, Hound and Mountain included. He considered a few known fighters stronger (not many, Book Jaime is apparently pretty strong), but knew he could beat them all (those still living) with speed and skill (he also stated he considered The Hound more dangerous). Obviously, it's a POV so potentially biased. Still, he always seemed to recognize strengths/weaknesses and always gave good fighters their fair due. He's also obviously seen the Mountain fight before, so it's not like he'd be taken by surprise.
I don't give a **** what Jaime thinks. He thought he'd paste Brienne on the jaw and be done with it despite the fact that he was starving, unarmoured, and hadn't fought or even exercised in like a year, the man's judgment is dogshit.
I'm possibly biased too since he's my favorite character (potentially like you with Mountain).
My favorite character is Stannis you pedophile.
He could take the weakspots in Mountains armor, like Viper.
He's not armed with a spear that can actually reliably do that, like Viper. He's armed with a 36" arming sword which would have trouble cutting through chainmail, much less piercing the thickest armour in the Seven Kingdoms.
He doesn't have that reach advantage from the spear,
You only briefly touched upon this but this is in fact exactly why Gregor would win, along with the much better durability and strength. Per Oberyn himself, it is "the only way to counter his reach", using a spear that is.
and obviously doesn't have the strength advantage, but he has a huge speed, stam, and skill advantage (Bronn described Mountain as slow, but still deceptively quick for his size).
You're reading what you want into Bronn's words. He never described him as slow, only stating he was "never fast". So we can take it that he is not fast like some of the faster fighters or Bronn, but that doesn't mean he's slow like Strongboar is explicitly stated to be by Jaime.
Even Bronn thought he had a chance at taking him by dancing around, and he's no Jaime.
Bronn said he "might" be able to, but a single slip up would mean his death. Much like it did for Oberyn, who was both the better warrior and more importantly far better equipped for the fight than Bronn would be with his standard arming sword.
Plus, it's not like Jaimes never fought at a strength/speed disadvantage. Dude fought the Smiling Knight (described as "The Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big but twice as mad."😉 to a standstill as a kid squire before he ever even got training from Dayne and Selmy, and Smiling Knight is someone who was quick and skilled enough to last in an extended duel with Dayne right after that (Dayne was so impressed, he knighted Jaime right after). I'd imagine the strength and size disadvantage would be similar to Prime Jaime vs Mountain. Selmy also considered Jaime the greatest natural swordsman he's ever seen.
My friend, there is not a single human being in history that is as strong as Gregor Clegane, who can wield a greatsword with one hand, cut people in half with it, and crush skulls with his grip strength. He killed both Raymun Darry and the horse he rode in on with a single blow, despite the fact that he would presumably be wearing plate mail. He is the only character in the books that isn't outright supernatural who is superhuman.
There might be some book characters with comparable strength, like Maelys the Monstrous, but even they don't have the same accolades or showings or sheer size as Gregor.
You also don't actually appreciate that the strength isn't even his biggest advantage over Jaime. It's durability. On top of feeling almost no pain, he is clad in the thickest and heaviest suit of plate mail in the setting, with chainmail and boiled leather below.
Jaime would have to stab at the very few weak points in Gregor's armour many times to bring him down. Gregor would have to hit Jaime a single time while having reach over twice as great. That's why Gregor would win.
Gregor himself had a few weakness besides being slow too. Shit stamina (Tyrion noted he wasn't able to lift his sword as high a bit into the fight; this was before Viper even tagged him),
He had enough stamina to fight a prolonged fight against a much less heavily armed and armoured opponent while injured from prior battles (per Tyrion) and even after getting stabbed in the armpit, behind the knee, and in the belly with a poison spear he had enough energy to overpower Oberyn and explode his skull with his hands.
Against a fighter who has to fight well inside of Gregor's range and is also clad in (useless against Gregor) plate mail I think he'll do okay.
and shit vision (Tyrion noted Viper was taking advantage of the narrow slits in the helm to keep out of his vision).
Jaime wears a plate helm that actually is way more cumbersome and ridiculous so I frankly doubt this will be much of an advantage for Jaime.
Even when Viper lost his spear and Mountain closed the distance, he was able to dodge and block hits with his small shield (so I don't see why Jaime couldn't parry/redirect a few swings).
The one (one, singular) strike Oberyn actually met directly with his shield sent him reeling backward and put him in a backward flight that was only broken when an unlucky stableboy took a hit that was meant for Oberyn, distracting Gregor with his screaming. I don't think meeting Gregor head-on is the answer my friend.
Even his armor started to get heavy (his knee buckled as he tried to take a step after Viper slashed his armpit). He straight up went down after the second hit severed his hamstrings. Two targeted hits, and he was basically done.
With a weapon vastly better suited for it than Jaime's that's poisoned. By contrast, Jaime would have been done after the first stab.
I don't know why you're bringing this up like it detracts from Gregor. Per both showings and every statement no non-supernatural character in the setting takes hits like Gregor. Per Bronn he doesn't seem to feel hits like he should, and as said he had enough strength to very quickly and violently kill Oberyn at the end of their fight. Do you think Jaime can endure nearly as much pain or physical trauma and still be dangerous? Not based on anything in the books.
Viper even managed to put the spear through Cleganes armored stomach, out the back, and into the ground to pin him (though it took all his body weight and broke the spear at the wooden shaft).
Something that Jaime could never replicate with an arming sword lol.
I always thought book Jaime could take Mountain with some pretty quick, targeted attacks. It's also kind of hard to see Mountain tagging him.
I don't know why, considering Gregor was quick enough to parry and even at one point tag Oberyn who was much more lightly armoured than Jaime would be while fighting with a weapon that actually counters Gregor's reach advantage.
The bottom line is this: Jaime fights in the standard Westerosi style with a sword, shield, and plate mail. Does he have the tools to beat Gregor if he adapted against him and went with a lightly armoured with a spear set-up? Yes. But Jaime's pride as a swordsman would never permit him to do that. So he would be fighting a man who is strong enough to kill him with a single point of contact while wielding a weapon that affords him half as much reach and would have to get within bull rushing range to even attempt to do any damage to Gregor, and because of Gregor's freakish tolerance for pain Jaime risks death even if he manages to slip between plates and wound him because Gregor could kill Jaime by forcing himself on top of him and crushing his skull. Oberyn knew he had no chance of beating Gregor by fighting with a sword for those reasons. He knew entering Gregor's threat radius is way too risky to be worth it and so went with a weapon that allowed him to harass and annoy Gregor until he got tired and could go for the kill. And used poison weapons no less.
Give Jaime a valyrian steel sword or Dawn and things might be different but just as they are Jaime doesn't have what it takes tbh imo fam