Originally posted by sithsaber408
No, yo soy un Christiano.(pero, todo es egual)
El tonto AC estas veinte anos, pero "estoy el primero de intelligencia"... y yo soy "un pendejo Christiano con intelligencia enferma".....
Ijole guey!!!
Pinche pequito mocosmo!
Did I get this Spanish right you A-hole?
Add your name in there too.
Originally posted by Backspace
Somebody explain to me how abortion is not murder.
We would ask:
Is this being alive? Yes. He has the characteristics of life. That is, he can reproduce his own cells and develop them into a specific pattern of maturity and function. Or more simply, he is not dead.
Is this being human? Yes. This is a unique being, distinguishable totally from any other living organism, completely human in all of his or her characteristics, including the 46 human chromosomes, and can develop only into a fully mature human.
Is this being complete? Yes. Nothing new will be added from the time of union of sperm and egg until the death of the old man or woman except growth and development of what is already there at the beginning. All he needs is time to develop and mature.
And we kill them.
With planning and on purpose.
I'll let you make the determination for yourself if it is murder. 😄
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Now we just have to wait for Deano V.3 to cut the pasting (ironically), conjure up a debate of his own rather than pasting irrelevant ones that have been discussed, and we can continue.-AC
Yeah, I cut and paste.... and?
Does your royal Gayness have any answers for me?
Or will you continue to side-step and dodge the points by whinning that they weren't written by me?
News flash: no matter what you think, not all of your "opinions" are formed solely by you.
I guess I should consider this debate closed unless you plan to refute each claim one by one. 😉
Originally posted by StyleTime
sithsaber408, you have done a LOT of posting. I guess I can commend for trying to get some evidence for your side BUT,......you have still given NO reasons to outlaw abortion.
Maybe not in your opinnion.....
But at other least people can be educated when making a decision, and can have all the facts. 🙂
"It has nothing to do with what kind of world you are telling me I want (which is what you are doing), it's me looking at what's there. Right now, abortion isn't murder because the two do not connect. If the laws change worldwide and the definition of murder is changed, we'll talk.
A woman doing something with her body, however you disagree, is none of your business. Ok so you don't wanna pay, fine. Even if you didn't have to, you'd still whine about third trimesters, despite the only grounds for doing so is moral dispute. Which would mean you are trying to force your morals onto others, which is stupid."
Did I say murder..............not once did I say murder. Its an issue of morality. I failed to see where you needed to crusade for women with nothing but your opinion which you have staunchly defended so you must want someone to believe you. Enforcing morality is necessary when people with questionable decision making skills are putting that judement to use.
Its the same way with theft, rape etc etc morality of a society dictates the laws to be enforced and as I said today they aren't enforced however tomorrow could and SHOULD be built on stronger more scientific and moral principles.
I'm out on this topic for now enjoy your black and white world AC ✅
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
So you're 23 but you knock AC for being 20?What a douche. "Three years makes me way more smarter! DUHHHRR"
And it's "Yo tengo" and "Yo soy muy intelligente para un hombre tan joven"(which doesn't seem true at all). My one eyed trouser snake speaks better Spanish than you do. Which is sad really, because Puerto Rican is like the ebonics of Spanish.
Tu eres Boricua? Orale!
Chicano Spanish is pretty ghetto as well, and Sithsaber is good. I had no problem reading his post.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
BIOLOGIC FACTSBiologic human life is defined by examining the scientific facts of human development. This is a field where there is no controversy, no disagreement. There is only one set of facts, only one embryology book is studied in medical school. The more scientific knowledge of fetal development that has been learned, the more science has confirmed that the beginning of any one human individual’s life, biologically speaking, begins at the completion of the union of his father’s sperm and his mother’s ovum, a process called "conception," "fertilization" or "fecundation." This is so be-cause this being, from fertilization, is alive, human, sexed, complete and growing.
Comment
- The above is not a religious faith belief.
- The above is not a philosophic theory.
- The above is not debatable, not questioned. It is a universally accepted scientific fact.
Note: Detailed biologic facts are in Chapters 11 and 12.
Must the question "when does human life begin" be answered?
If there is one absolutely essential function of a nation or state, it is to protect the lives of those who live within its boundaries. In order to carry out this solemn duty it must first ask and answer when the life of its people begins.
What intellectual discipline, what method of measurement can we (should we) use in making this fateful definition?
The question of when human life begins is a scientific question. Therefore, we should look to scientific facts rather than philosophic theories or religious beliefs for the answer. We must conclude then that each individual human life begins at the beginning, at fertilization, and that human life is a continuum from that time until death.
What simple measure would you use to define Human Life?
We would ask:
Is this being alive? Yes. He has the characteristics of life. That is, he can reproduce his own cells and develop them into a specific pattern of maturity and function. Or more simply, he is not dead.
Is this being human? Yes. This is a unique being, distinguishable totally from any other living organism, completely human in all of his or her characteristics, including the 46 human chromosomes, and can develop only into a fully mature human.
Is this being complete? Yes. Nothing new will be added from the time of union of sperm and egg until the death of the old man or woman except growth and development of what is already there at the beginning. All he needs is time to develop and mature.
But what if a person would still sincerely doubt that this is human life in the womb?
Even if a person did doubt the presence of actual human life in the uterus at a particular time, what would be the fully human way to go? Perhaps a guide would be how we have always treated other human life when there has been a doubt that it exists. Would we not resolve a doubt in favor of life? We do not bury those who are doubtfully dead. We work frantically to help rescue entombed miners, a child lost in the mountains, or a person under a collapsed building. Does a hunter shoot until he knows that it is a deer and not another man? We suggest that the truly human way of thinking would be to give life the benefit of the doubt.
But isn’t "conception" different from "fertilization?"
Ever since its discovery 150 years ago, both words were used to mean the union of sperm and ovum. In the 1960s the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the American College of OB & GYN agreed to attempt to redefine "conception" to mean implantation. "Conception is the implantation of the blastocyst. It is not synonymous with fertilization." E. Hughes, ed., "OB & GYN Terminology," Philadelphia: F. A. Davis,1972
This made it possible to call an intrauterine device a "contraceptive" even though it was an abortifacient (see chapter 29).
But in 1982, lengthy hearings in the U.S. Senate and the two-volume report of the Human Life Bill defined "conception" and used it exclusively to mean the time of union of sperm and ovum. "Human Life Bill," U.S. Senate Common Judiciary, Subcommittee of Separation of Powers, 97th Congress, S-158, April-June 1982, Serial No. J-97-16
This "American" semantic distortion is not accepted in many other nations where "conception," "fertilization," and "fecundation" are all used interchangeably.
But when is it a person?
"Person" is defined in our dictionary in 14 different ways. Yellowstone Park is a person. So is General Motors. So are you. But the Supreme Court of the U.S. in 1857 ruled that black people were not persons, and in 1973 that unborn people were not persons. You answer this question by first inquiring what the questioner means by "a person."
Did Dr. Liley, the "Father of Fetology," think the tiny being was human?
Dr. Liley, who did the first fetal blood transfusion in the womb, said that seven days after fertilization: ". . . the young individual, in command of his environment and destiny with a tenacious purpose, implants in the spongy lining and with a display of physiological power, suppresses his mother’s menstrual period. This is his home for the next 270 days and to make it habitable, the embryo develops a placenta and a protective capsule of fluid for himself. He also solves, single-handed, the homograft problem, that dazzling feat by which foetus and mother, although immunological foreigners who could not exchange skin grafts nor safely receive blood from each other, never the less tolerate each other in parabiosis for nine months.
"We know that he moves with a delightful easy grace in his buoyant world, that foetal comfort deter-mines foetal position. He is responsive to pain and touch and cold and sound and light. He drinks his amniotic fluid, more if it is artificially sweetened, less it if is given an unpleasant taste. He gets hiccups and sucks his thumb. He wakes and sleeps. He gets bored with repetitive signals but can be taught to be alerted by a first signal for a second different one. And, finally, he determines his birthday, for unquestionably, the onset of labour is a unilateral decision of the foetus.
"This, then, is the foetus we know and, indeed, we each once were. This is the foetus we look after in modern obstetrics, the same baby we are caring for be-fore and after birth, who before birth can be ill and need diagnosis and treatment just like any other patient." A. Liley, "A Case Against Abortion," Liberal Studies, Whitcombe & Tombs, Ltd., 1971
This is more bullshit than an actual bull taking a shit.
First of all, a foetus is not a foetus until 8 weeks after the sperm reaches the egg. Before that it is a embryo, and before that it is a zygote. That basically kills the whole argument already, but let's move on.
Second of all, the brain is the last organ to develop, making sleep, boredness, learning and etc all physically impossible until about the third trimester, where it's practically illegal to have an abortion anyway, not only because the baby is already formed, but also because the surgery has more detrimental effects to the mother than any other period. The ideal time for an abortion is between 3-12 weeks.
Third, the reason for actual birth is still under debate. Whether the mother's body decides it's time or whether the foetus releases hormones signaling the fact, is unknown. Basically making that point null and void and consequently the rest of the argument.
Double post-tastic!
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Tu eres Boricua? Orale!Chicano Spanish is pretty ghetto as well, and Sithsaber is good. I had no problem reading his post.
Si, yo soy Boricua, and damn proud of it.
Yea, for a white boy it was half decent, but the grammar still made my teeth itch.
And ups to Big Pun, my favorite rapper ever! After all this time I'm still amazed at songs like "Beware". Damn shame he died the way he did.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Yeah, I cut and paste.... and?Does your royal Gayness have any answers for me?
Or will you continue to side-step and dodge the points by whinning that they weren't written by me?
News flash: no matter what you think, not all of your "opinions" are formed solely by you.
I guess I should consider this debate closed unless you plan to refute each claim one by one. 😉
I never dodged your points, that's the comedic thing about it. You post pages upon pages of irrelevant bs and then have the gall to assume that each part of it deserves attention. Coward technique, son. Paste pages and then hide behind it as if you've gathered your own opinion.
How long have you been in this thread? Every issue you've posted has been dealt with to one degree or another, by me or someone else.
Your first major part was about religion, irrelevant. Biology, dealt with. Tax? Don't wanna pay, fine. That's not your issue though is it? I know this because paying or not, you'd still have a problem.
You've been out of this debate for a while, dunno if you realised that Adolf. Until you can form your own debate, I won't treat anything you say as such. I've refuted everything you've conjured by yourself so you're resorting to Deano style.
Originally posted by soleran30
Did I say murder..............not once did I say murder. Its an issue of morality. I failed to see where you needed to crusade for women with nothing but your opinion which you have staunchly defended so you must want someone to believe you. Enforcing morality is necessary when people with questionable decision making skills are putting that judement to use.
Morality being subjective, who are you to go enforcing that upon other humans? You may be enforcing it upon someone who doesn't share your morality.
Originally posted by soleran30
Its the same way with theft, rape etc etc morality of a society dictates the laws to be enforced and as I said today they aren't enforced however tomorrow could and SHOULD be built on stronger more scientific and moral principles.
YOUR moral principles and standards, there are many who disagree. With regards to law, the facts are on my side. When the law and definitions change, we'll chat. Until then...you're a bit stuck.
Originally posted by soleran30
I'm out on this topic for now enjoy your black and white world AC
When in doubt, repeat?
-AC
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Pro-choicer's like styletime, AC, and Arachnoid freak call me a religious Hitler who wants to steal everbody's freedoms.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Maybe not in your opinnion.....But at other least people can be educated when making a decision, and can have all the facts. 🙂
You are confusing some of us with pro-abortion.
The pro-choice side, and the truth, is that your opinion doesn't matter at all here. It has nothing to do with you because it is the other woman's body. Now when you can show proof of abortion infringing upon your rights or heck anyone's rights, I'll consider a law against it.
Originally posted by soleran30
Its the same way with theft, rape etc etc morality of a society dictates the laws to be enforced and as I said today they aren't enforced however tomorrow could and SHOULD be built on stronger more scientific and moral principles.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
This is more bullshit than an actual bull taking a shit.First of all, a foetus is not a foetus until 8 weeks after the sperm reaches the egg. Before that it is a embryo, and before that it is a zygote. That basically kills the whole argument already, but let's move on.
Second of all, the brain is the last organ to develop, making sleep, boredness, learning and etc all physically impossible until about the third trimester, where it's practically illegal to have an abortion anyway, not only because the baby is already formed, but also because the surgery has more detrimental effects to the mother than any other period. The ideal time for an abortion is between 3-12 weeks.
Third, the reason for actual birth is still under debate. Whether the mother's body decides it's time or whether the foetus releases hormones signaling the fact, is unknown. Basically making that point null and void and consequently the rest of the argument.
Uhh... no.
21 days-the heart begins to beat regularly and pumps blood through the circulatory system.
30 days-the eyes, ears, mouth,kidneys, and liver exist.
42 days-brain waves are reliably present and reflexes exist.
45 days-teeth buds are present; skeleton is complete; movement begins.
(this is all before 8 weeks by the way, which is how long you CLAIM that it takes an embryo to become a fetus.)
56 days-all body systems are present; he reacts to pain.
9-10 weeks-she squints, retracts her tounge, and will bend her fingers around an object.
11-12 weeks- all body systems work; her arms and legs move; she swallows, sucks thumb, inhales and exhales amniotic fluid, and has fingernails.
(it is between these times ...3-12 weeks... that you say all abortions are performed.) 🙁
14 weeks -the auditory sense is present.
16 weeks-eyelashes are present, he can grasp, swim, kick, and turn.
18 weeks-her vocal cords work; she can cry.
20 weeks-hair appears; he weighs about one pound and is about 12 inches long.
Thats all by the age of 5 months.
I figured I'd respond to this post in the proper thread.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Interesting.If he had been aborted just a few months earlier, then the abuser wouldn't have to face a charge of capital murder.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Morality being subjective, who are you to go enforcing that upon other humans? You may be enforcing it upon someone who doesn't share your morality.YOUR moral principles and standards, there are many who disagree. With regards to law, the facts are on my side. When the law and definitions change, we'll chat. Until then...you're a bit stuck.
Whenever speaking of morals its pretty clear they are subjective. I have never said I am going out to enforce my belief. Nope I have said due to what I believe to be true from my understanding of science I feel third trimester abortions are wrong.
When speaking of morality people may not accept my view on rape and theft and I may be on a moral "high horse." Well guess what thats how society works, if enough people believe its wrong then it is which is where abortions are headed now anyway.
There is no discussion required for that they are proven to be alive and can live within a hospital's care. The only reason a woman would have a third trimester abortion should be for health reasons. There are far to many other alternatives to accept abortion in the third trimester realizing these are humans alive and fit all your meaning AC's requirements for life as you had talked about pages and pages back.
But never fear AC doctors in the UK are already voicing concerns about neonates. Thats step one next step is third trimester abortions.
And in summation to your last sentance in "your a bit stuck" actually I'm not. I have never condemned anyone in our conversation for abortions but I have addressed the key issue of when is a child a child and in so doing proven without a doubt third trimester humans shouldn't be aborted on a whim or being feint of heart. Which by the way cannot happen in the USA anyway so have fun in the UK and realize this will be there soon enough🙂
If abortion was made illegal then the only thing that would happen is women would perform them themselves or have willing and probably inexperienced practitioners do it for them. The result would be more women dying.
Women have been performing abortion throughout history. "Banning" it wouldn't stop anything. The only thing that would happen is women and practitioners of abortion would be thrown in an already ridiculously full American prison system.
Men have as much say in giving birth as women have as much say to men about working or jacking off. Every women wants to have a child, as does every man. But the difference is men can choose to ignore that child after they have took a part in conceiving it, with a "clear" concious, whereas women don't have that option.
Who are men to make these decisions for all women? Yes we are entitled to our opinions on the matter, but do we have the right to give the ultimate decision based on our views? Hell no!. Where are the women here to give their 2 cents?
Give birth, like a woman, than come back and talk to me.
Originally posted by soleran30
There is no discussion required for that they are proven to be alive and can live within a hospital's care. The only reason a woman would have a third trimester abortion should be for health reasons. There are far to many other alternatives to accept abortion in the third trimester realizing these are humans alive and fit all your meaning AC's requirements for life as you had talked about pages and pages back.
You talking to me or someone else, champ?
Anyone can live in the hospital's care. That baby cannot survive on it's own.
Now, who are you to say what reasons a woman WOULD have a third trimester and why they should occur? Ok, that's your belief and I can handle that. Very fair enough, but you ARE forcing your morality upon females to have them stop certain abortion points JUST because you disagree with it. It doesn't hurt you nor does it infringe upon you.
Originally posted by soleran20
But never fear AC doctors in the UK are already voicing concerns about neonates. Thats step one next step is third trimester abortions.And in summation to your last sentance in "your a bit stuck" actually I'm not. I have never condemned anyone in our conversation for abortions but I have addressed the key issue of when is a child a child and in so doing proven without a doubt third trimester humans shouldn't be aborted on a whim or being feint of heart. Which by the way cannot happen in the USA anyway so have fun in the UK and realize this will be there soon enough🙂
We can sit here all day and discuss what we believe humans shouldn't be doing, but we have no power over that and when it concerns just a single female and no one else, nor should we.
When it's here, again we'll talk.
-AC
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Uhh... no.[B]21 days
-the heart begins to beat regularly and pumps blood through the circulatory system.30 days-the eyes, ears, mouth,kidneys, and liver exist.
42 days-brain waves are reliably present and reflexes exist.
45 days-teeth buds are present; skeleton is complete; movement begins.
(this is all before 8 weeks by the way, which is how long you CLAIM that it takes an embryo to become a fetus.)
56 days-all body systems are present; he reacts to pain.
9-10 weeks-she squints, retracts her tounge, and will bend her fingers around an object.
11-12 weeks- all body systems work; her arms and legs move; she swallows, sucks thumb, inhales and exhales amniotic fluid, and has fingernails.
(it is between these times ...3-12 weeks... that you say all abortions are performed.) 🙁
14 weeks -the auditory sense is present.
16 weeks-eyelashes are present, he can grasp, swim, kick, and turn.
18 weeks-her vocal cords work; she can cry.
20 weeks-hair appears; he weighs about one pound and is about 12 inches long.
Thats all by the age of 5 months. [/B]
Hooly shit guy, I just went over this shit in class and have an exam this week on it. I know what goes where. I dont claim anything, I stated fact.
Science does not classify it as a fetus until 8 WEEKS after conception, and the brain is the LAST organ to develop. There isnt an actual heart until a little later, all this about heartbeats so early is garbage, if you put just TWO heart cells together they start beating and you can hear a 'heartbeat' but its not an actual heart yet. Are you going to tell me that my professor and all those textbooks are lies made up by god hating heathens?