Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Yeah. Though it is still proven as regards a set of criteria. When the criteria don't apply, the situation is broken down anyway.
Yes, I mean abortion is factually not murder in the US, Canada, Europe, etc.
But if some islamist state for example, would decide to define it as murder and prosecute accordingly it would be murder....it's not really set, is it?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, I mean abortion is factually not murder in the US, Canada, Europe, etc.But if some islamist state for example, would decide to define it as murder and prosecute accordingly it would be murder....it's not really set, is it?
No. That's the same point as I am making.
I thought you originally said that murder in general cannot be proven.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[B]It is actually self-invented isn't it? Because it doesn't exist. I don't mean YOURSELF, I mean someone decided "Ok, this is how the future will be if this, this and this carries on.". Based on what? Negatively projecting the results of things you dislike.
In fairness, what everyone considers to be a "good" reality versus "flawed" does differ. I see things that are flawed, I try to fix them.
y could do the opposite and be as accurate.
So it has as much credibility as the opposite arguement? Alright, Im fine with that.
Im not completely biased to any one side. I'm just for the right to choose. I don't love, like, dislike or hate abortion. It just needs to be an option, as does adoption.
Which is an opinion, therefore a bias. I dont know why you dont like biases, but fine.
Abortion is credible as an option only in Therapeutic abortion (which I have never been against, just do not like) which is to save /protect the life of the mother in her choice, maybe even in rape cases. Link: http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3311.htm. Beyond that I cant support any elective abortion based off of a person's inability to make better decisions or their laziness at having a child they were unprepared for, because if they get away with it once theyll probably do it again, or something like it. Irresponsibility=crime=abuse=bad stuff=budget/tax losses, etc... And by no means do I pin irresonsible lifestyles on abortion entirely, but as I said, it is a factor.
Nobody has unlimited rights, they stop when others are being infringed upon. When you place yourself in the way so you're imposed upon anyway, it doesn't count, as you are doing. That's like me walking into a bar where everyone's already smoking and saying "This is disgusting, I'm gonna sit here and moan.".
Indirectly, there are many things that have and do cause others to be infringed upon buy things like abortion, or abused technology in general. One example is anti-viral drugs. They work if they are used in the right dose and on the people who really need them, but when over/underused or taken by others who dont need it, bacteria mutates and creates a new strand of itself, which is resistant to the disease. It is more than likely this new bacteria could be spread elsewhere or to other people, and eventually entire populations need a new medicine, some even die because there is now no available cure. Thats all Ive been trying to say about out thing effects another.
Now imagine if abortion becomes out of hand...if it becomes a cheaper and much simpler procedure which in the future it probably will. As an option, it is much easier, and a more viable choice. Lets say that abortion rates suddenly raise drastically again, such as in the late 60s and 70s... It becomes popular enough to be more widely socially acceptable, as it is becoming today and over the past decades. A new medical practice comes out, where children are born, and then the mother can donate the baby to science in exchange for cash...so the organs can be taken and grown to help other people...whatever (hypothetically). At first it may be widely criticized, but what if it too becomes acceptable, because it doesnt affect YOU, it affects someone else. WHo cares?, or "THe money makes it worth it", whatever the F*. That means now not only has social and moral standards been warped, but so has the constitution and basic rights.
Its a gateway problem, just like marajauna is a gateway drug. Marajauna isnt very dangerous compared to other drugs, but once you get hooked on it, you start getting hooked on other stuff which can kill you...And the whole scenario might sound crazy, but realistically, no one in the 17th century would even dream of nuclear weapons or cloning. Its not really as farfetched as it may seem.
Post-partum isn't definite, it's a possibility, just like it's possible she'll go on to live a better life because of the abortion. Your suicide analogy is bs, if I killed myself it wouldn't matter to anyone here, likewise to you, or at least it shouldn't.
I feel sorry for you, you seem like you have a poor family life. You know, that could be grounds for a bias.
And although post-partum isnt definite, it is a risk. And a real one that actually leads to deaths. The fact it could lead someone to a better life is also indefinite.
How do you know they're much more likely to be irresponsible? Now we're tying child abuse to abortion? Are you kidding me? What an idiot.We're not discussing child abuse, we're discussing abortion, and abortion isn't any more to blame for child abuse than it is to blame for the ozone layer's hole.
Im going to go with "What an idiot"
Its human nature. When allowed to get away with one thing, people are more likely to do it again, and other things related to it. If a robber gets away with robbery, he will be more likely to try it again, maybe even bring his friends for the ride. And while were robbing anyways, whats really so bad about gang-raping or something? Its realistic, its sad, its true.
I'm from England. Who's discussing ultimate freedom? I'm saying women have the right to decide what they do with their foetus, and nothing you can say will prove any definitive impact on you or your life.
So? Does that mean I dont care?
Abortion is a problem according to who? Why are our views subjective and somehow abortion is an objective problem based on an imaginary future? Odd view. You're twisting it; the abuse of abortion is a problem with people, like the abuse of anything. The procedure is not forcing people to abuse it, it exists and so people are. That sucks, but it's a sacrifice that has to be made to ensure the freedom of many who use it responsibly. You say there is no responsible use of abortion based on the fact that you feel everyone should deal with it, and your kind are dying out.
No, abortions in rape or for the survival of the mother are justified and responsible. Many pro-lifers will agree to that extent. But that is the ultimate line.
Do you realise that "better" is subjective? That your ideal world may be a hellhole to many?
Give me an example and I will shut the hell up, given what I have said above. But it better be really good -and itd better not be subjective. Give me a reason, a real scenario of people in the world who would truly suffer without being able to have abortions without a medical or rape, etc..reason.
Yes, it is. Who the f*ck are they to me? It doesn't affect me in any way possible. I couldn't give a shit about anyone but myself, my loved ones and those I care about, regardless of who they are.Where was it written that I have to give my concern to nobodies? You have a warped view of the world.
My reply:
You have a warped view of the world
Yeah, it does actually mean we can get rid of them."Don't give me that shit about 'It's a living thing!'. A genital wart is a living thing, but if it's gonna irritate you for life you burn it off."
-Doug Stanhope.
I have sympathy for anyone who is or could be your future child to compare them to a genital wart.
To who? You? You need to realise your view of the world as it "should" be is not the default here.
Which is why my opinion is all the more important.
YOU are being self-centred. You don't give a shit about other people, you only care about your views being forced and you are using foetuses as a tool to do so. How do I know this? I know this because I know the key flaw in your debate and the debate of others like you:Everyone you are against were foetuses too, and you're oppressing them, the very right you'd fight to protect, you'd remove once they reach a certain age. You'll fight for them as foetuses, you fight for them to have lives, then you seem to act as if they only have those rights when they are a foetus. You value those higher than people here. It's a self-defeating argument.
I DO TOO give a shit about people. ALL people, even unborn ones. What the hell does fetuses have to do with forcing my ideas on someone! Here, take this fetus, EAT IT! HA! Tyrranny!
You are not being oppressed! I think the lives of people who are not yet born are worth more than one stupid "right" that helps absolutely no one but a self-centered person who made a mistake and cant face it.
So why do you want the foetus to live? I'll propose why; because you want to fill its head full of your own opinions in the hopes it'll grow up to be like you. You don't want it to have a chance at life, you want to use it.
BTW, Im building a baby army. I collect them, you see, and brainwash them with propaganda that says their parents wanted to have them aborted. God, stupid kids -they'll beleive anything these days!!!
...And you dare call me an idiot.
Precisely, and maybe it is apathy. Why should I care what a woman does? But if I'm going to take action, it's pro-choice.
I've said everything in this post that was in the essay, even copy and pasted parts of it.If you genuinely want me to paste the insults, despite previously requesting otherwise, there may be less to you than I thought.
-AC [/B]
Im in the mood. Shoot away. 😛
Originally posted by Shelbert Lemon
You speak to me, yet you ignored me before.Are you a Dr... How do you know whats good for that persons 'mental state' .... Giving birth to a baby that they didnt want or couldnt afford can be more damaging and have lasting effects on their 'mental state'.
Yes, I forgot about that. An abortion isnt really an abortion if the child is already goin to die, so I dont see what it really matters. I would put that alongside rape cases and therapeutic abortion.
---And friends do give advice. Its their own self-induced problem, therefore they should be responsible and raise their kid, like good parents. 🙂 Im sure their mental state will be alright, because all parents have to deal with children and so far I dont think its killed anyone.
Monetarily, there is something called child support and/or relative help.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
In fairness, what everyone considers to be a "good" reality versus "flawed" does differ. I see things that are flawed, I try to fix them.
Exactly, so if you considered ME to be flawed, what right have you to try to "fix" me when I am not only none of your business, but not affecting your life whatsoever?
Flawed is different to different people, what's flawed to you isn't flawed to some. So don't attempt to change things that you have no right changing.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
So it has as much credibility as the opposite arguement? Alright, Im fine with that.
I said I COULD, not that it's what I'm doing, because I'm not. I'm not creating an future that's better because everyone is having abortions and using it as an example.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Which is an opinion, therefore a bias. I dont know why you dont like biases, but fine.Abortion is credible as an option only in Therapeutic abortion (which I have never been against, just do not like) which is to save /protect the life of the mother in her choice, maybe even in rape cases. Link: http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3311.htm. Beyond that I cant support any elective abortion based off of a person's inability to make better decisions or their laziness at having a child they were unprepared for, because if they get away with it once theyll probably do it again, or something like it. Irresponsibility=crime=abuse=bad stuff=budget/tax losses, etc... And by no means do I pin irresonsible lifestyles on abortion entirely, but as I said, it is a factor.
Credible only as an option to who? It's credible anyway. If you don't like it, if you openly admit there are aspects of abortion you do not like but are not against, why not the whole thing? Oh, the doomed future thing, right. MAYBE in rape cases? Are you a sadist? What about rape pregnancy is redeemable?
This is what I find ridiculous, the whole idea that you feel you get to decide people's decisions. You only get to have an opinion on them, not force that opinion.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Indirectly, there are many things that have and do cause others to be infringed upon buy things like abortion, or abused technology in general. One example is anti-viral drugs. They work if they are used in the right dose and on the people who really need them, but when over/underused or taken by others who dont need it, bacteria mutates and creates a new strand of itself, which is resistant to the disease. It is more than likely this new bacteria could be spread elsewhere or to other people, and eventually entire populations need a new medicine, some even die because there is now no available cure. Thats all Ive been trying to say about out thing effects another.
So now explain how abortion is relevant, not an anti-viral drug.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Now imagine if abortion becomes out of hand...if it becomes a cheaper and much simpler procedure which in the future it probably will. As an option, it is much easier, and a more viable choice. Lets say that abortion rates suddenly raise drastically again, such as in the late 60s and 70s... It becomes popular enough to be more widely socially acceptable, as it is becoming today and over the past decades. A new medical practice comes out, where children are born, and then the mother can donate the baby to science in exchange for cash...so the organs can be taken and grown to help other people...whatever (hypothetically). At first it may be widely criticized, but what if it too becomes acceptable, because it doesnt affect YOU, it affects someone else. WHo cares?, or "THe money makes it worth it", whatever the F*. That means now not only has social and moral standards been warped, but so has the constitution and basic rights.
Ok, you've been allowed to say your scenario, here's mine:
Let's say abortion carries on as it is and doesn't actually change a whole lot, and all the stuff you are pinning on it doesn't actually happen, like it isn't right now, and hasn't before. What will you say then?
All of what you just said is as valid as someone saying: "If someone followed Hitler's teachings and built an army big enough, and killed enough of opposing armies, they could take over countries, then the world, then we'd have a world ruler! And that is why we should ban teaching what Hitler thought.". You're basically saying "My vision would happen if this, this and this occured.", yes? England would win the World Cup if they scored enough goals and won enough games.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Its a gateway problem, just like marajauna is a gateway drug. Marajauna isnt very dangerous compared to other drugs, but once you get hooked on it, you start getting hooked on other stuff which can kill you...And the whole scenario might sound crazy, but realistically, no one in the 17th century would even dream of nuclear weapons or cloning. Its not really as farfetched as it may seem.
Nuclear weapons and cloning were development. The subsequent consequences of abortion that YOU propose are in no way connected.
Oh, and I'm curious; if marijuana is a gateway drug, why are there people who use cigarettes and alcohol that hate anything illegal? Surely they would then want more drugs. Why does trying an ILLEGAL drug mean you will want more, when trying legal, WORSE drugs, doesn't even mean that? Especially considering the fact that the first drugs people ever try are such things as alcohol, caffeine, tobacco etc. Think, then reply. I'll give you a hint...
Spoiler:
Because you're talking bullshit.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
I feel sorry for you, you seem like you have a poor family life. You know, that could be grounds for a bias.
I have a great family life, thank you. I wouldn't change my family life if I could.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
And although post-partum isnt definite, it is a risk. And a real one that actually leads to deaths. The fact it could lead someone to a better life is also indefinite.
Crossing the road is a risk that leads to deaths, it also might lead to the pharmacy that sells cough medicine that you need for your throat. Your point is flawed.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Im going to go with "What an idiot"Its human nature. When allowed to get away with one thing, people are more likely to do it again, and other things related to it. If a robber gets away with robbery, he will be more likely to try it again, maybe even bring his friends for the ride. And while were robbing anyways, whats really so bad about gang-raping or something? Its realistic, its sad, its true.
That's all speculatory though. You're choosing to ignore the fact that the opposite to whatever you believe might actually be the case. Nothing you've proposed has come to pass, regarding abortion. The only reason you even have an argument is because we're not in the future and it doesn't exist, so it's all opinion.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
So? Does that mean I dont care?
No, it means it's none of your business. The very fact that you would have to know and be informed to even realise a baby has been aborted proves that it has no impact on you.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
No, abortions in rape or for the survival of the mother are justified and responsible. Many pro-lifers will agree to that extent. But that is the ultimate line.
Survival, how do you define survival? Like...LITERALLY being kept alive by the procedure?
Ultimate to who? You were born without the belief of being pro-life, you were born without any beliefs at all. You CHOSE to be pro-life, why should we all fall in line because of that? Stupidness.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Give me an example and I will shut the hell up, given what I have said above. But it better be really good -and itd better not be subjective. Give me a reason, a real scenario of people in the world who would truly suffer without being able to have abortions without a medical or rape, etc..reason.
Everything you've said regarding abortions so far is subjective. What do you feel you've said, that is fact? Because I'm curious now.
I can't give you a REAL scenario since it hasn't happened, and it isn't about suffering, because people can survive without abortion, but that was never my argument. They shouldn't have to survive without it just because someone dislikes it. A lot of people dislike metal music, and I could survive without it, but why should I go without something I have the right to because someone dislikes it? You believe that because they won't tragically suffer, it's not a loss?
I turn the question on you, now I've answered: Give me a genuine, believable example as to why people ARE or HAVE suffered, actually suffered, because abortion exists? Not "My beliefs do not agree.", actual suffering.
-AC
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
I have sympathy for anyone who is or could be your future child to compare them to a genital wart.
Who's comparing THEM? They're comparing the idea of getting rid of something that could cause a situation that's less than favourable. You wouldn't keep it on such a silly basis. Cells are about as equal.
Cells and foetuses are not future ANYTHING unless they are allowed to progress. You obviously believe that the future exists now, it doesn't, it's a concept, an idea.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Which is why my opinion is all the more important.
Facist, fearmongering oppressive opinions are not important.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
I DO TOO give a shit about people. ALL people, even unborn ones. What the hell does fetuses have to do with forcing my ideas on someone! Here, take this fetus, EAT IT! HA! Tyrranny!
Cells? You care for cells?
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
You are not being oppressed! I think the lives of people who are not yet born are worth more than one stupid "right" that helps absolutely no one but a self-centered person who made a mistake and cant face it.
They aren't lives, they aren't yet born, they are cells and they are dependent organisms. YOU cannot face THAT and accept it, so why should we all accept your subjective bs view of why women have abortions?
You don't care about all people. You are oppressing the very thing you seek to make sure of. You want to make sure these cells become foetuses, these foetuses become babies, these babies can become adults. Why? So you can tell them what they do not have the right to do?
You're a moron.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
BTW, Im building a baby army. I collect them, you see, and brainwash them with propaganda that says their parents wanted to have them aborted. God, stupid kids -they'll beleive anything these days!!!...And you dare call me an idiot.
Yes, because we can all see that's your basis.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
I prefer the term pro-abortion, but fine by me.
Splendid.
Originally posted by The Black Ghost
Im in the mood. Shoot away. 😛
I'd rather not, actually. I've said everything on topic that I've ever intended to say, and I intend not to give you an escape route by outright insulting you.
-AC
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I think we all know that it's not only sluts and women whose lives are in danger, who have abortions.
Why is it anyone's business anyway if sluts want to get abortions? It's their lifestyle choice.
Regarding your example, an abortion is completely and utterly different to killing a living, thinking and malevolent human being.
Originally posted by The Black GhostYes. Actually it IS still an abortion ... even if the fetus is going to die later during the pregnancy or shortly after birth due to abnormalities ... its still called an abortion. Just like in the case of rape or whatever.. you can not say it isnt abortion just because it fits your idea of whats an ok reason to terminate the pregnancy. So in this case you would be pro-abortion.
Yes, I forgot about that. An abortion isnt really an abortion if the child is already goin to die, so I dont see what it really matters. I would put that alongside rape cases and therapeutic abortion.---And friends do give advice. Its their own self-induced problem, therefore they should be responsible and raise their kid, like good parents. 🙂 Im sure their mental state will be alright, because all parents have to deal with children and so far I dont think its killed anyone.
Monetarily, there is something called child support and/or relative help.
It doesnt matter if they can 'deal' with be parents... SOme are able and some are not able to deal with what it takes to raise a child.
.. weather it is morally right to you, Tom, Dick or Harry... The fact remains... it is not your life. You are NOT the one who is responsible for the health and well being of another individual. Its quite selfish in my opinion to force the woman to keep her pregnancy and force her to live her life as a mother just because someone who is pro-life thinks its the 'right and moral' way to go.